Episode 67 – Brendan – gay dad

00:14
Welcome to our podcast series with Surrogacy Australia. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen and in turn for helping us spread awareness and appreciation for surrogacy. I’m your host Anna McKay and these recordings are from a regular webinar series that I run. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org During the one hour webinars I will walk you through the surrogacy process in Australia and you can type in questions for us to answer.

00:41
My co-hosts have all done surrogacy in Australia, and they alternate between surrogates, gay dads, and straight mums. This episode is one from the archives, recorded in September 2021, and features Brendan. Brendan and Matt from Adelaide became dads to their son Baker in September 2020. Their son was carried by their surrogate, Anna, who was previously a stranger, and that’s me, and I also live in South Australia with them.

01:06
Brendan has been a mentor with SASS and has supported many new gay intended dads who are at the beginning of their journey. You can find them on Instagram at the real dads of Adelaide, which has underscores between each word. It was a trip down memory lane for me editing this episode. Firstly, in terms of how I host the webinars these days, the questions I ask, which photos we share, the order that we go through a journey, et cetera. And secondly, because I edited this on Father’s Day in September, 2024.

01:34
as we head towards Baker’s fourth birthday at the end of this month. I had some kid-free time on the Sunday as my husband, Glen, and I are now separated. But obviously you’ll hear Glen is a big part of the journey when Brendan speaks about it. Brendan gives a snapshot of his journey and then answers many questions, including topics like, were you nervous that the surrogate would want to keep the baby? How much it cost? Egg collections? Embryo creation? And you’ll hear the banter between us, which I hope you’ll agree is fun.

02:00
If you’re interested to hear me talk about my years in the surrogacy community, I was co-host on my own webinar series in 2024 when surrogate Danny interviewed me. It’s a long episode, so watch this space for that to be converted in the future. I’m aiming for the end of December 2024, and that will be episode 84. I hope you enjoy this episode. And a happy Father’s Day to all of the fathers out there, or those on their way to becoming dads, and a happy birthday to Baker for his fourth birthday at the end of this month.

02:29
Brendan, hello, you’re on. Hello. So a few photos here, Brendan. I’d love you to tell us about some of these and what they meant. Yeah. Well, I guess this photo was the night or morning, I guess. Yeah. After the birth. I don’t know. This photo just, it just, I don’t know. It kind of just takes me back.

02:47
to the night and it’s very overwhelming. As in it was such a joyous kind of experience that we were so glad that we could be a part of because like it makes me think of how lucky we were that we got to be a part of the home birth because as you’re aware with COVID, we weren’t sure that we would get to this point. So it was just very overwhelming for so many reasons. It was very special. It was one of the, I think first photos we all had, Matt, myself and Baker had together. Yes, it was. Yeah, because I was out chatting to Midwives

03:17
that’s on your bed. So is that. This is on your bed. Oh, this man in my bedroom. This photo is Matt, my fiance, holding Baker just after you had passed him over. Still working out big head. He’s so nervous. But so overcome with emotion. I’m not so nervous. But yeah, just looking down at him, he felt, well, we thought he was so little, but he actually wasn’t. He was in like the 98th percentile for his measurements. But at that point,

03:47
or 4.1 kilos or something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this was our, um, us heading home. We had stayed at Anna’s house, Anna and Glen’s house for two nights and then we stayed for a further five, five? Yeah, five, um, at an Airbnb close to Anna’s house. So we had like daily visits, uh, but this was like after a final lunch, Anna had made us like a farewell lunch at her house. So we packed up the Airbnb, headed back to her place, kind of had our final, yeah, goodbye of that.

04:14
wrap up of that week, I guess. And then, yeah, we headed off, popped him in the car and headed back home, which I mean, is only 35 minutes away, but it was also quite daunting to think that we were heading back without.

04:25
The support of you being like a couple of minutes down the road. Yeah. I’ll add to that so that they, so to just reiterate what Brennan said there, it was something that our team decided on was that even though we’re only 35 minutes away all in Adelaide, that I got this idea from another surrogate team had gone before us that they would stay at an Airbnb near us for about a week post-birth. And the logistics of that are tricky because they couldn’t book the Airbnb in until I went into labor, because you didn’t know when that was all going to happen. So it was an IP that’s either stress and logistics there,

04:55
What?

04:55
to the lads credit, they did that for me, which I was so very grateful for. And then, yeah, we saw each other daily in that week, probably three times a day actually, because we’re only a few minutes apart and I did a lot of direct breastfeeding. And so they would say, he needs milk. And so instead of Uber, we called me Boober, Auntie Boober for a while there, milk delivery, which was fun. So yeah, we spent a lot of time together in that week. And then they went home and then we saw each other, I think every day for the next week, week two, and then we pasted out every two days. So that was a bit of our plan.

05:25
cup contact that’s it off you go I’ve never seen you again it was um a gradual wean off each other if you like and then this was the January it’s about four months post-birth was it? Yeah it would have been yeah almost to the day very close um I think within a week anyway but yeah this is our just after we had our parentage order granted.

05:44
I think we went for brunch, lunch after this. Yeah, as like a bit of a celebration, but yeah, again, another really significant moment for all of us. Because legally it was all done then, the big project was done. So yeah, and then a little family holiday. How cute is he by the way? Look at him, he’s like, I swear to God, I’m probably biased, but like the most adorable baby. So cute with his beanies. I know, this is like, we just needed to get away. So with COVID and stuff, all of my family are interstate. We had planned to like make a few trips over.

06:10
you know, that year of since he was born kind of back, but we haven’t had the opportunity to so we’re like, let’s just get away. So we just went down to like Port Elliott or wherever we went for our first little family trip and it was yeah, really special. Lots of logistics packing up and getting there. Yeah, almost like not worth it. We went for two nights and the amount of stuff you put in a car and just like, is this really worth it? But it was great. And then this was only just a few weeks ago, I guess, around the first birthday. Yeah, just this was Father’s Day.

06:35
staying lovely. So yeah what was that like first Father’s Day? It was weird it was like it still felt like it was more about our dads strangely enough like I don’t think it’s really settled in that like I was still planning the logistics for their celebration but no one really plans it for us like we still plan our own day because Baker’s so little so I don’t know I think it was like over the next few years I think it’ll be you know more about us but yeah it was it was lovely. As he gets into it yeah um yeah it starts buying I think we’ve had this conversation like about the

07:05
So I’m really looking forward to it. Like back scratches and… A painted rock or something. Yay. Goes straight in the bin. I mean, no. Cherished forever. Wonderful. So there’s a bit of an overview of some Brendan’s story, but I’m sure through answering some of these questions, you’ll get to hear more about his story. So we’ve got one question that’s come through and I’m sure there’s some others as people stop and think about.

07:28
them. So have you got anything else you just want to add at the moment Brendan or? I mean I guess I can talk, I could talk about surrogacy for like 24 hours straight. Awesome. Um let’s answer this question and we’ll go from there.

07:39
Okay. So Daniel says, I understand it’s all about trust between the IPs and the surrogate in case of very rare scenario where the surrogate changes their mind and wants to keep the baby. Is there anything in the paperwork leading up to the birth of the child that will cover the intended parents, some kind of written contract? But yes, for us here in South Australia, there is a formal written agreement or contract. That’s why here we have two lawyers. So we have a lawyer that represents Anna and her team, I guess, her and Glenn. And then we have a lawyer for us that represents our interests in saying

08:09
though the written contract that has to be completed so that in South Australia we can get our parentage order actually doesn’t really hold up in court. If something was to occur like Anna wanted to keep him we would then have to go through the family court system. There is a contract that shows basically all of our intent intentions prior to going through transfer and all of the medical side of it so that does help us but no there’s no contract so to speak that would send the police

08:39
would have to, I guess, go through the legal process of a family court hearing. Is that about right? Absolutely. And that’s really interesting. I don’t often answer it like that because I just, right, but I think that’s really valuable to hear that basically the answer is no, but here’s what the process would be. But I would anticipate that that’s probably coming from person at the beginning of their journey. And so it’s probably quite a natural thing to go, okay, yeah, Annie, you’re saying it’s all about trust, but just give me a bit more of the backstory. So then, Brenda, did you ever get to that point then, or even before chatting to me

09:09
how do I ever get to that point of fully trusting the person that she’s gonna do what she says she’s gonna do? Yeah, no. Typical Australian way to answer a question. I definitely did not get to a place of security around that question until we had formed a relationship. It was always a concern of mine especially because I’m someone who plans, you know, for A, B and C scenarios. So it was very concerning and I think we actually had quite a few conversations about that and you would always reassure me saying, you know,

09:38
quotes that you would say to me like, you know, there hasn’t been an example, an example of in Australia of that occurring. And you would also say to me all the time that, uh, you and Glen have no fertility issues and you could have your own baby. So this is a really roundabout way to go to have a baby when, you know, you could just go and have one yourself. Um, plus I’ve spent plenty of time with you and you well and truly that you didn’t want to.

10:00
So yeah, I think that a hundred percent, it was a genuine concern of ours and always caused anxiety. I think once our team formed, we started to understand who you were as a person, what your family looked like, and the relationship that we then created and the foundations that our team put in place, kind of just washed aside at the end. You actually find yourself, or we found ourselves, defending the process to some degree, because all of our friends and family who obviously weren’t as involved in the process as we were, that was like one of their main concerns.

10:30
What if she wants to keep him?

10:31
or her. So at that point we found ourselves like, no, no, no, like, yes, it seems scary, but this is the situation. And, you know, they kind of just got on board because we felt comfortable with it. They naturally then started to feel comfortable with it or were less concerned at least. But you know, you go through the same things that with home birth, everyone’s like, why would you do that? So it’s, you find yourself, you know, initially being concerned by those particular parts of the process, then you getting on board and then having to explain it to all the other people who are in your little circle who are then concerned by them.

11:01
and you’re educating the people behind, like coming up behind you. A domino, you know, passes on down the line, which is great because then it creates confidence in your wider team and, you know, creates advocates for surrogacy and advocates for the whole process. So, absolutely. Basically, it does cause anxiety, but I think once you get comfortable with your team, you know, hopefully that then is set aside. And so then that would probably come down to, that takes time. It’s not one conversation where Anna says, I don’t want any more kids. It was many conversations over time that I probably…

11:31
only said it but then hanging out with Glen and I and the kids and me occasionally having moments of oh my god two children help you know I don’t want anymore and like two days before we signed the legal agreement Glen had a vasectomy yeah remember that and there was Christmas lights too and so then you know they’re here helping put up the Christmas lights they folded our washing you know slapped each other in the face with Glen’s jokes I distinctly remember oh he’s you know having a rest so you know they knew that we were you know doing those things to stop our stop our

12:01
Jonah too. So I was actually quite comfortable with my genetics being out there and not being attached in the bag is not my genetics, but so yeah, I suppose it does come down to trust there. I think Brendan’s answer that in terms of that’s the legal thing that would happen if it ever got to that point. But I think you would, you would probably never go into a surrogate pregnancy until you got to that pretty certain level of trust of what she was going to be like during pregnancy to, to trust that she doesn’t want you to have. That’s right. I mean, and there’s, there’s definitely things you can’t plan for as we’re

12:31
surrogacy and the journey that you’ll go on as a team. But I think that is one thing that you should feel like a wholeheartedly 100% confident in before you move forward. Cause things change and you know.

12:42
I mean, we go from like having a hospital birth to home birth. And you know, we talk about gender reveals, not gender reveals, all these different things that can change through your journey. But that’s one thing you should feel super like concrete on before you would enter something, I think. Yeah. And that again, takes time. And so even if a woman does have to be your surrogate, which is huge, still take that time. Trudy. Hello Trudy. So how long had Brendan and Matt been active in the community before chatting to Anna? And did you feel like there was an instant connection or did it take time to build? Really good question.

13:12
to say that we were probably active nine months to 12 months maybe, that’s the time Matt quotes when we have mentor sessions. I think it was more like six months. Well, Matt was in the community because back when I was in it, you could check his join date. He was in it for a year just watching. Yeah, I take that back. We weren’t active in the community for that.

13:29
We were in the community for 12 months. We were very lucky how it worked for us. I do quite a few mentor sessions and I’m 100% honest. There’s no question that I’m like not afraid to answer. So I’ll answer anything from how much it costs us to the dollar, all of those things, because I think when we first started our journey, we didn’t have that. We didn’t have anyone that we felt comfortable that we could go and ask these questions to. So yeah, feel free to put anything up there and I’ll pretty much. Here you go people. You’ve got it tonight. You’ve got uncensored. Ask anything. Uncensored with our surrogate sitting here. So.

13:58
Go for it. But so look, I mean time escapes me I think from when we put up our introduction post and that spiked Anna’s interest quite early I think she had reached out and correct me if I’m wrong here. Feel free to interject She had reached out to us to say that there was a local catch-up, which obviously this is pre-covid So that happened a lot more frequently, but there was a catch-up So I think our introduction post was up for only a matter of a week or so. Yeah

14:23
And I’ll just add in there. So they were lucky in that sense because I was looking. So they were in the right place at the right time when there was a surrogate that was waiting for IPs and there weren’t many others in Adelaide that I felt like were a good fit for me. There were a few others, but not heaps looking. And then they did their posts. And so we did that. We did our posts and in our posts, Matt had mentioned that he’d actually been a sperm donor for a good friend, a lesbian couple, friends of ours in Melbourne. So Anna had kind of, you know, read our introductory posts and, you know, a few things had sparked her interest. So, uh, she reached out to us and said, look, there’s a local catch up.

14:53
know, you guys should come along and then I thought, okay, cool. Let’s, let’s do it. And then we chickened out.

14:58
It was like too scary, too intimidating. So we decided at that point that we wouldn’t go. And then Anna had messaged us and said that it was, you know, shame that she didn’t get to meet us. She was looking forward to meeting us, but that if she wanted to have a conversation or if we wanted to have a chat over the phone at some point that we were, she was happy to do that for us. And then you’d been out for dinner, I think with some girlfriends and you were on your way home. There’s the photo of me. I’ve had a few wines and I’m feeling confident. Is that, yeah, that’s it. So then you call us and we chatted on the phone for like an hour.

15:28
or so I reckon. Did we? I forgot. It was quite a long time. I thought we just met in person. No, no, no, no, no. We chatted on the phone. You were driving home and you were speaking to us in your car and it was quite late. It was like, can I call you? And it was like 10.30 or something. Oh, okay. Yeah, all right. I wouldn’t have been drinking as much then. No, she had a few drinks. Anyway, so she had a chat to us and we’re like, okay, she seems really cool. So let’s have a more serious thing about meeting her. And then you had put out there, did you want to meet in person? So we met in person. It was like at the Pickle Duck. Yes, good, at the Modbury.

15:58
That’s right. So a place close to Anna’s house, we went up there and it was like five or six hours and we ended up having a conversation and it got really deep. Like we were talking about things like what are your thoughts on termination, religion, all of these different things which you probably wouldn’t normally speak about. But I don’t know, I think we just felt really comfortable at the beginning and then we kind of left there and little did we know that Anna was like actively looking at that time. So I think that that’s why we were so lucky that, you know, the fact that Matt had donated sperm and helped another couple with their, you know,

16:28
had given to someone so you wanted to give to us, you were looking for a same-sex male couple and you were looking for someone in Adelaide. So we ticked a lot of your boxes. So we were just lucky in that sense that, you know, right time, right place kind of thing. From there, we kind of, what, six months? Well, then we had a big, large group catch up at the Cathedral Hotel. Correct. And then- I feel like at that point you were already showing us off a little bit. Not as your own, but like, oh, like- And so then for me, and I know there’s at least one surrogate

16:58
you get this sense of I don’t want anybody else to have them. I want them to be mine. So do we need to be exclusive now because I don’t want them to be chatting to others and so then that’s when I offered to you and said I…

17:10
I’d like to offer to date. So let’s be exclusive because I’m not going to go talking to anybody else. And I don’t want you to. And so then that’s when I, I said, shall we date for six months with the plan that I’m going to be your surrogate, but let’s not start any of the counseling or legal or IVF paperwork until then I at about six months will come at you and officially say, now let’s go. Yeah. That’s how it was in my head. Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly how it happened. Yes. And so I don’t think it was an instant connection. I feel like there was a instant attraction.

17:40
like for our potential surrogate. And I think for you to us as potential IPs, there was a lot of bug boxes ticked where we thought, okay, this could work. So it was more about from that point moving forward, exploring, I guess, each other more in depth. And then also it’s then, you know, getting to know, you know, you’re getting to know our family, our friendship circles and vice versa. Because, you know, when you go through this, you do become heavily involved with all aspects of, you know, each other’s lives. So that’s for that six months, it was quite intense. We did a podcast the other day

18:10
we were talking about how intense that period of time was, you know, we spent, you were very keen, serious.

18:17
committed to us spending 100 hours together that weren’t surrogacy related. So no surrogacy appointment, et cetera, could be counted towards that. So it was, you know, catch-ups and yeah. But that did take 12 months to do. It did, it took 12 months to do 100 in person hours that weren’t appointed. Yeah, but you had already, you had already. I’ve started the tally. And you had already offered to us before that, right? Yes, I had. So it was, I think by the time we had our first transfer, we would, we hit the 100. Correct, yeah. And you presented it to us at another catch-up.

18:47
Anna had handwritten like dates and times and how many hours we’d spent at each catch up. And those catch ups arranged, you know, from like catch ups with the four of us, you know, having dinner as in you and Glen and Matt and I, and then, you know, us spending time with your kids, you know, and that was a big one. And I spoke about this, I speak about this all the time, about you, it being very important to you for your kids to feel comfortable with us, because as a surrogate, you know, you would need to rely on us. And that might mean putting your kids to bed at night, giving you some respite, spending time with them on the weekend, and they needed to be able to feel comfortable.

19:17
comfortable with us and you needed to have trust in us. You know, we were realistically trusting you with our child and you know, you needed to feel comfortable to trust us with yours. Absolutely. Yeah, a couple of things I’ve added there was that, oh, in the last 10 weeks of pregnancy, you know, very hands-on either cooking batches of food every fortnight or coming and they did my grocery shopping for the last five weeks and came home, unpacked it and put it away. And they took my kids out to the park or the movie so that I could have a rest. So for anybody here, either with kids or aunties and uncles to kids,

19:47
drive our car with the car seats in the back. So to take our kids and the kids had to know them. And when you first met, your was two, two and a half, a bit. Cause he was, he had, he went through toileting, you know, so when they took them out, sometimes, you know, every half an hour asking a kid, do you need to go to the toilet and helping him, if he’d had it wet himself, a lot of trust there, but not just you trust the adults, you have to know that your kids feel comfortable with them. And that only comes with time doing that. And then the other thing that I, it’s funny hearing what you would say about me, but the thing that I say is that Brendan said,

20:17
Anna as much as she was interviewing us. Yeah, I still stand by that 100%. And I kind of, I liked and hated that arrogance. Yeah. That, that was appealing to me, that that he was comfortable enough to be himself and say that and realizing the importance of making sure I was the right fit for you. Yeah, and look, I’ll expand on that a little bit because I know to talk about Matt and I, our experience, we initially had…

20:40
decided that we were kind of, we were really just looking, we weren’t planning on having a child this early, so to speak. We were really just starting to investigate. We looked at adoption, we looked at fostering, and we looked at surrogacy. And Matt entering the ASC, the Australian Surrogacy Community on Facebook, was really just to dip our toes in and get understanding of what surrogacy meant and what it potentially could look like. So the fact that, you know, we matched with Anna and our egg donor so quickly was not planned. Why, yes, we were very grateful. There was no sense of urgency on our part.

21:10
I wanted to make sure that we were taking our time because I knew, you know, Anna and Glenn would be a part of our life forever. And we wanted them to be available for Baker for, you know, in his future, we wanted to know his story. And if he had questions that this person, surrogate was going to be available to him. And, you know, you never know what the future is going to hold, but I wanted to do as much as we could to make sure that that was somewhat a reality for us. So when we were looking for a surrogate, we wanted to make sure that our surrogate.

21:36
was a match for us that, you know, we didn’t have to have the same interests and like the same music, but we needed to make sure that we could at least stand each other and enjoy each other’s company because this person was being invited into our extended family forever. So it was very important for us to find someone that we felt comfortable with. And we thought we could have an ongoing relationship with and one that was very intimate. When I made that comment, you know, cause it does feel as an intended parent, you know, when you’re out there, you’re putting yourself out there, you’re feeling vulnerable. You do feel like surrogates have the upper hand

22:06
And that’s just the way it is in this world, unfortunately. Like you do feel like you need to put your best foot forward all the time. You need to make the best impression. You need to sell yourself. So I wanted to do that. And I wanted to be authentically us. But I also wanted to make sure that we weren’t just jumping at any opportunity that presented itself to us. We wanted to make sure that the person that we were going through this journey with was really right to us. And that was going to be the right influence on Baker too. You know what I mean? Like I’m terrible at maths. I needed to find someone who was a maths teacher. And thank God you’re a maths teacher.

22:35
Cause I’m terrible. Terrible at us. Exactly. That’s all right. So, you know, yeah. So it does sound arrogant initially, but there was a lot of thought putting to that comment and I still stand by. I still think that especially for people, and I don’t know what it feels like to wait for years and to go, you know, we, we ended up having our issues with fertility as we went through that process, but we don’t know what it feels like to wait for years and years and years, we were so lucky to find a surrogate and an egg donor as quickly as we did, so I can’t speak to that.

23:04
pain and frustration, but you know, I can speak to- But even every surrogacy journey, even though that bit was easy, surrogacy is still hard. 100%, yeah.

23:13
100%. So yeah, look, when I, I had just wanted to make sure that we were making the right choice. And that’s where that comment came from. And I know that some surrogates don’t love that, that comment that I made. But everyone wants to be through it. Even surrogates agree with it. 100%. And it’s funny. So we’ve kind of answered a few there. That’s so Trudy, that probably has answered yours there. It’s funny. I got a little bit teary here listening to you talk about that because I finally realized, you know, at 12 months post birth, so knowing each other, what, two and a half? No, three. I’ve lost track now. How many years we’ve known each other?

23:42
Um, so for those listening tonight and truly you’ve known me and people hear some of my friends that Brendan has been saying that the whole time that is their vision and it’s going to be part of our life. We want her to be available for our child. And it’s also focusing on the child that wasn’t even born, but their best interest not was just the adults best interest of, we just want to have a baby. It’s who is this person in our lives and who’s her family and are they good people too? And then my emotions have done this the whole time. And I don’t, I don’t know if I.

24:10
Not that I didn’t fully believe it, but until we’ve lived it out…

24:13
that you’re doing what you said you were going to do and how important that that was to you. That it’s, yeah. And so, cause you’re going to have a wobbly surrogate sometimes. So I think, yeah, Trudy, that probably answered some of your first ones there. So it’s lovely to hear. Yeah. I think, and that’s why I think when I made that comment initially, it was because, you know, I just didn’t want to, we hadn’t necessarily been through a lot of turmoil to get to that point. So I didn’t want to just jump at something. And I guess for someone who has been

24:43
you know, troubles for, you know, a decade or five years or what, however long it may be. Sometimes a month of fertility issues can feel like a lifetime. It can be easy to like, to want to jump at the first opportunity that presents itself. But I guess my advice on that is to just make sure that that person is gonna be a part of your life for a long time. So just make sure it’s the right person. And so you have every right to ask questions and get to know them because, you know, just because someone gives you an offer, which is a fantastic thing, make sure it’s the right.

25:10
Do you want to go to the next question? Yes, James and Stu, the question there for me, when you were initially interested, what conversations did you have with Glenn? Yes, because people often ask, you know, how has your husband went with surrogacy? And I say, Glenn said, as long as you do your research and you don’t rush in. That was Glenn.

25:23
And so from the time I first looked into surrogacy, when Ewan was six months old, it was four years until I burst. So it was certainly not rushed in the end there. So for intended parents listening, you need to be interviewing the surrogate’s partner as well. You need to check that they’re fully on board as much as a partner can be. So I think, you know, this was my project and Glenn and the kids came along for the ride. So fair enough, he doesn’t have to fully love it and engage with it. But you know, when we had our date nights, sometimes the boys would come over and we’d get take away and put the kids to bed and then we’d sit down

25:53
and eat and chat about things. You’ve got the partners got to want to be there and get to know these people. And although predominantly you guys, I guess, are my friends, you know, we’ve got one group chat with me and the guys and one with Glen and her as well. I guess it’s okay for partners of surrogates to be a bit nervous at the beginning because they worry about that legal thing. Like, what do you mean the surrogates husband’s names on the birth certificate for a child that’s got nothing to do with him? They would be nervous about that as well. The impact that they’ve watched their wife or their partner be pregnant and they know how tired and.

26:22
hormonal that she can get and he’s like, oh God, she’s going to go through that again. You know, like, okay, great. And any other restrictions that come with that. And so yeah, he’s got to sort of be okay with it, that it’s for a greater good and you know, what her reasons are behind doing that. So you want to interview the surrogate’s partner just as much to check that he’s fully on board. My tip for Glenn, I learned because I joined ASC and then I was learning all of this stuff so fast and I just wanted to talk about it all the time. But I’ve learned with Glenn, drip feed.

26:52
Don’t come in and rush him when he’s trying to watch TV in the evening and talk to him for an hour about all the things you’ve learned in surrogacy. Tell him a little bit. Come back the next day, tell him a little bit more. That was my technique. Drip feed him over time.

27:03
Yeah, and to expand on that, I think it is so important to make sure they’re on board, especially for our journey anyway. Glenn was such, we always say he’s like the unsung hero of the journey, because so often he played mediator. You know, he’d been through two pregnancies previously with you, so he knew what was coming up for us. So I think he even said- What are you talking about? And I’ve got no memory of any of the things- I think he even said like, you know, strap in boys, like, you know, kind of like-

27:29
Like he, he was a huge asset to the team and we’re so very grateful for, you know, him being there as a support. And also as a mouthpiece for yourself, you know, when there were moments where you felt like maybe there was something you couldn’t discuss directly with us, it was then Glenn’s job at that point. So, you know, why they may not need to be as passionate about surrogacy as we are. He definitely needs to be involved and understand what role he’s going to have because, you know, we were only 35 minutes away, but there was still like, you know, two o’clock in the morning where you weren’t feeling well. And he was there as your support. You know, even though we live in the

27:59
same city we can’t be there for you all the time and that falls on him so yeah it’s very important to make sure that they’re there and willing to come along for the ride and play his part I guess. Yeah and they might not be fully on board at the beginning but they’ll grow into it. Yeah. So what are some of the best parts and the hardest parts? Honestly the best part for me I love talking about surrogacy I like

28:20
being an advocate for surrogacy. I mean, it is one of the hardest things that you’ll do, but it is obviously has the ultimate reward for you at the end. So I think that where Matt and I struggled at the beginning by not having any kind of support or even really someone like SASS, what they offer, just some framework, because we were like, okay, surrogacy, what does that look like? And it was really, thank God Matthew is like the most incredible project manager. Like I’m a typical Aquarian and I’m just like, I’m on a baby. And he’s like, okay, well, how’s that going to happen? I don’t know, I’m just manifesting it,

28:50
on a vision board, like it’ll happen. And then say, Matt just scurries away and does all of the actual work to make it happen. And it was really kind of difficult for us at the beginning because we didn’t, you know, we didn’t know the process. There was nowhere it was an outline. Like you join the ASC and there’s so many people on there that are talking to their experience but that doesn’t necessarily apply to us. You’ve got different legislations in states. You’ve got, you know, a hetero couple talking about their experience, which is so different potentially from a homosexual couple. So, you know, there’s lots of information out there but sometimes that just trying to siphon

29:20
and through that in itself can be very overwhelming. And people are talking about, you know, their journey that was four years ago, that’s outdated now. I think SASS provides that outline, that framework, which is just so easy to be able to go there and say, hey, like, what do I do? Where do I start? Because we didn’t know that. So I guess muddling our way through that at the beginning and just trying to find like lawyers and counselors that just weren’t trying to rip you off. Like I always use this analogy, like, you know, you go to a florist and you say, I want this bunch of flowers, it’s like 30 bucks. But then you say it’s for a wedding and they’re like, oh no, it’s 300.

29:50
So I feel like that’s it with surrogacy. Like you speak to a lawyer and they tell you something’s going to be like $10,000 because it’s super complex. And then you speak to the next lawyer and our lawyer was fantastic here. And she’s like, I’ve got a template for that. You know, it was like $2,200. So putting all of that time and energy into like finding the right people to help build up your extended team. I found that very challenging.

30:09
just to kind of get started. And then you’ve got like very hard part is the fertility process. You know, especially if you hit some roadblocks along the way, like what do we call it? Like there’s like a, is it 12 days or post-transfer, 12 days PT or- Oh, two week wait. Two week wait, yeah, that’s what it is. Like that in itself, like I’m not a patient person. So like having a transfer done and then waiting to see if it’s taken is so stressful. And it’s all consuming.

30:36
like the fact that you still have to go to work and like focus on your job while you’re like sitting there in your mind going like is our surrogate pregnant you know and like it’s so like how you see it what do we do yeah and it’s just like doing the normal stuff like doing your grocery shopping and filling your car with petulant feeding your pets like all of those things just seem so irrelevant because they’re in the back of your mind there’s like the biggest thing is happening for you lots of things like that they’re in the fertility process that is quite stressful

31:06
taking over our lives. I mean, it is the most important project we’ll ever do, but we need to like still live because, and I say this in my mental sessions all the time, it’s easy to let it take over your whole life. And then if unfortunately you don’t have success and it’s two or three years later.

31:22
you’ve almost given away those years of your life because you forgot, you forget to live. You know, there was definitely months that just disappeared and we’re like, we’ve not seen our friends. We haven’t seen our family because you’re just so engrossed in the process. So we always like try and help people or suggest to them to like take some time out. And you know, the process and the boxes you have to tick are there. They’re not going anywhere. You have to complete them, but don’t lose yourself in the journey, so to speak. And I remember saying to you at some point that I usually am quite optimistic,

31:52
I’m so down in some parts of the process. And I was said to you, like I’m sick of feeling this way about it. I’m like, I’m going to put my rose colored glasses back on. Do you remember me saying that to you? Because I was like, I just want to start being really optimistic about things again.

32:04
because it’s easy to for you not to feel like that. Because I said to you, if you know, if we do end up being pregnant and we do end up having a baby, I want to actually look back on this time and say that I enjoyed it. So I kind of put those rose colored glasses back on and started trying to be more optimistic about the process. Maybe I’ll sum it up and ask you, what was one of the hardest things about the pregnancy? Um, personalities. I would say that I am quite.

32:26
confident in my opinions and feelings and putting them forward. Matthew is more of an anxious type and you’re a mixture of the two. I feel like sometimes like you would put things out there in a conversation and I would put things out there. I would walk away and not give it a second thought, but then you would like say something and then walk away and stress about.

32:43
how that may have landed. Yes. So, you know, and we had decided quite early on that we weren’t gonna message each other cause that didn’t work for us because this, you know, context things could be misinterpreted. So we made the effort to either catch up in person or have a phone call or a FaceTime cause that was just more productive for us. Yeah, I think that, I think the emotions of pregnancy for yourself sometimes cast like a shadow of doubt on some of the things that we were doing or saying. And we were trying to stay true to the commitment that we had made, but even doing that

33:13
the way we could, you know, we still wasn’t enough sometimes. So we needed to either bring in Glenn, or we needed to have a counseling session and just almost reset as a team. But I still think from like 31 weeks, I think that was the mark. Did we say that 30, 31 weeks on was like, it was really bliss. It was. We had a bump at 31 weeks, like a misunderstanding about something. And we happened to have a third trimester counseling session. I’d had some along the way, but then we had a team one booked in and that happened. We’d already had that booked in and we had a bump the week before.

33:43
and it was a good reset. It was particularly good when Katrina Hale said, Anna, let it go.

33:48
Yes. Won’t forget that. Which is not what you were expecting. She put me in my place, but that was the beauty of a third person because if you two had said to me, Anna, let it go, I’d be like, who are you to tell me to let it go? But because it was a third party and some, you know, a counselor, that’s what I needed. I needed to pull my head in. There were so many things along the way that we didn’t see value in or didn’t think would help our journey that you were quite strong for that I’m so glad that we compromised on. Like, you know, staying close to you as an Airbnb, I say this all the time, that I was like, why would we do that?

34:18
we’re 35 minutes away, like I’ve got no problem putting, you know, a kid in the car and coming and visiting you whenever you needed to see him. And you’re like, Oh, I don’t think you want to do that with a newborn. Like it’s probably more convenient if we’re together. I hadn’t been a parent of a newborn.

34:31
I was so naive. I was like, I don’t mind putting him in a car and driving 35 minutes. Because you quite like driving. You like cars. Yeah, I like driving, but not with a screaming baby in the car. You know what I mean? And just the effort of putting everything and packing everything. Like, I think the fact that we stayed close to you, which I saw no value in, was one of the most incredible weeks of our lives. It was just so beautiful. And we were almost removed from our mundane day to day that we have at home. So even though we’re only half an hour away, it was almost this little, I don’t know, holiday almost. Yeah.

35:01
safe haven where it was just us, you know, with people coming up and visiting us, it was just really beautiful. So that was really lovely. That was a really great part of the journey, you know.

35:10
The birth photographer, again, that was something I was like, I don’t know if I want to look at those photos, but I’m so glad that you pushed for that and that we agreed in the end to have that. Because I mean, it just goes by that whole, I mean, it was particularly quick, but you know, without those, none of us would have the opportunity to look back like we do now. So I think that one of the most important things was that we all had the ability to compromise on things that may not have been important for us at the time. You know, one of Anna’s big concerns was about not having a gender reveal. She wanted us to all find out the gender at birth,

35:40
important for me to find out. So that’s something she compromised on along the way. So. Yeah. And that’s the example I give all the time is that we talk about that prior to pregnancy in case anybody’s, you know, you have to talk about this beforehand and it nearly split us as a team. And I nearly came up and I got quite stubborn and Brendan and I were like, I’m like, well, I won’t let you find out.

36:00
a child. Which just like enraged me. Enraged you. And there was that reality of if I’m like, well, I won’t let you in the room when the stenographer’s scanning. And then there was this moment of, wow, it’s what the surrogate says goes, isn’t it? Like if she doesn’t let us know, we don’t get to know, she really has the power for this. And so then, and for me, I then, we had a, the plan was whenever we had conflict, everybody say what they want and they feel, pause, have a week off and make a date and a time and we’re going to come back and we’re going to talk about this awkward thing. We’re not

36:30
and talk about it. And then I think is one of the strengths of our team is our ability to resolve conflicts. And we had plenty. We did. What is funny though, is that every time we had a conflict and we resolved it and it would go around saying that we’re like the gold standard of a team, like because we had the ability to deal with conflict and we thought that we wouldn’t at each time, we thought we wouldn’t have any more conflict. And then we did. And it was just like, I don’t think we necessarily resolved it any better at each kind of roadblock that hit. I think that we were maybe more efficient in resolving them. I think that the first time we had it and the disagreement,

36:59
we didn’t really communicate for a week or so. But then after that, we were just like, let’s chat. Let’s get on board. Yeah. Yeah. And I learned a lot about, yeah, my own relationship and friendships and stuff there. But yeah, so for gender, for me, it was that I, I then realized I could lose these guys. If this was so important to me that I didn’t want to know gender, I could say, okay, this is so important.

37:17
I need to find new IPs, I’m not the surrogate for you. But then also made me go, wow, they could walk away from me. And I go, do you want to go back to square one, Anna? No, then you need to compromise. And again, this was friend Lauren from work was really helpful helping me work out a different way that I could find joy in this situation. And again, that’s what I would encourage a lot of people. You need to have a support network like your neighbors or whoever that are not in surrogacy that you can vent to and tell all these scenarios to. And they fully understand the journey that you’re going on so that you can sometimes get different perspectives

37:47
into your team. So even though you might not have people that are in that journey with you, you need to just be continuing now to talk to people about surrogacy so that they’re up skilled by the time it all kicks off there. So, to sum it up, is there, if you’ve got any parting advice or? No, not really. I mean, stick with it. It’s the saying which sounds so stereotypical, you know, that it’s a marathon, not a sprint, like could not be any more relevant. It is. And I think that, you know, even now we learn things about surrogacy and we hear about other teams journeys. And you know,

38:17
from ours. So, you know, we obviously talk about our journey and that’s what we should talk to because that’s what we know and we live. But just because that, you know, this is how we did it, doesn’t necessarily mean how, you know, other teams need to do it. So I think that lots of mentor sessions I have.

38:31
they often are with same sex male couples. They are like, oh, do I have to see my surrogate like every fortnight? That’s what you guys did. And that’s a big time commitment. But we had agreed early on that Anna had quite a lot of leave sitting there. So she was happy to take her sick leave for appointments. And then we would repay her with time. So we would give her four or five hours, sometimes six hours off on a Sunday. We would make pizzas with the kids, things like that. So that you could do SASS work or school work

39:01
to do. So, you know, just because we’ve spoken to our experience, you’re not locked into that model. And you might get a surrogate that doesn’t want you in a pocket that much anyway. Yeah. And that’ll only come from time and learning your team. So, Absolutely. And that’s why I think it all comes down to like really spending that time to build foundations and make sure that, you know, that person you’re with as a team and their expectations, you know, meet yours and that.

39:22
I think one thing that we also learned along the way was that we could all have an initial plan or an idea of how we wanted things to go, but we needed to be willing to kind of, you know, go with the ebbs and flows of the journey. Absolutely. Well, excellent guys. Thank you for joining us. No, there’s another question. There’s a question. Read it out if you want to. Brendan mentioned earlier that he was happy to share the total cost. roughly, can you give us an estimate to how much the whole process cost? I know the answer, but you say it. Yeah, I will. It was to me. Thank you very much. I’m sorry. So, I mean, I’ll quickly just go out.

39:51
two egg collections. Sometimes, you know, teens have more or less total. It was about 60,000, is what it cost us out of pocket. And that’s everything. So that’s including our two egg collections with our egg donor. That’s transfers, attempted transfers, and then it’s all of the like miscellaneous things. So it’s like maternity clothes for Anna, maternity bras, by the way, did not know how expensive they were.

40:15
There were nights that- That was probably all the clothes that we brought because we could bought secondhand clothes, but the bras are expensive. So IVF about 30 grand then? 35? Okay, because there was no Medicare rebates. Yeah, so no Medicare rebates for that for us. So, okay, so this is what’s crazy, right? Because Matt and I were actually the first same-sex male couple to do legal surrogacy here in South Australia. So the fertility clinic, which is the only fertility clinic in South Australia that will work with two dads, Reprimed,

40:45
with a couple before that hadn’t got the rebates. So things like, just little examples, like the day of trance, sorry, the day of egg collection with our egg donor, it was like 11 and a half thousand for that day process. And she was like, the woman, the receptionist was typing it into the F-plus machine and she was like, oh, I don’t think this is right. And Matt’s like, it’s right. She’s like, I’ve never typed in a number. I’ve never typed this number into the F-plus machine and like little things. So when Jen, our egg donor needed fertility drugs, they usually just

41:15
because Repromed give, they just give like boxes of stuff because they just throw it away because Medicare rebate them for most of us. So usually most couples pay like a couple of hundred dollars and they just get this big bag of medication. And then when we went there, we get no rebate off the medicine. So we’re like buying individual pens. They’d never done that before, but I’m like, I’m not paying like $400 for a pen when I’m not gonna use it. Like if we need more, I’ll come back and get it. And so it was like educating them along the way. And lots of their forms were like mother, father.

41:45
generous for the first 12 months. But after that, I was like, get your

41:48
together, like we’ve been working with you, we paid you tens of thousands of dollars, get someone in your admin team to fix it because it’s annoying now and it’s offensive. So I’d lost my niceness towards some of the things after a while. Did you have any? Yes, I did. And they hadn’t got us pregnant. So I was getting really upset. They hadn’t got us pregnant. No. So yeah, look, 60 grand in total, that was with two transfers, sorry, two egg collections and two transfers and one attempted transfer on our second embryo.

42:18
So they tried to slug like slug a $700 for that. I was like, I’m not paying you for that. Like you put it on the bench and let it thaw and it didn’t work. Why am I paying you for that? And so they agreed. They actually didn’t charge us. So they took that cost away. They paid you for the freezer, but yeah. That’s another thing too, is that don’t be afraid to challenge these people along the way, because we found quite often that you could get discounted.

42:39
discounts on things if you challenge them. Yeah, instead of just all these coordination fees. Yeah, exactly. It all adds up. Like at the beginning, you’re like, oh, it’s only $500, you know, whatever, I’ll pay it. But then at the end of your journey, when you’re like 40, $50,000 in, that money adds up. And lucky we had that approach from the very beginning, but there’s lots of people that don’t, and then they regret not, you know, having that mindset at the early days. And it’s again, knowing other people who’ve gone through it to know what’s reasonable. If a lawyer says, oh, that’s gonna be $10,000 for that. If you don’t know if that’s reasonable or not,

43:09
And so again, having a third party, I guess like SASS or your SASS mentors to ask, how do you think this seems reasonable? And the beauty of the SASS mentors, I suppose, is they’re in your state. So they’ve done your legal, you know, minefield in your state, the same as you. So just in terms of that, a money question again, again, from my data gathering, 55 to 60,000 is the average. You can have a range of 35 up to 90,000. Those are at the $35,000 end. They might already have their embryos or they only need one collection and it works on the first transfer.

43:39
other and they probably have no loss of wages and then traditional authority and what and it could be traditional yeah but the fit i’ve had people do it for 35 gestational yeah yeah yeah yeah but yep and the 90 000 they could you know multiple egg collection cycles multiple transfers interstate from each other so then the ip is having to travel a lot could be large loss of wages so that could be your range but i mean you could still be up to the 60 70 80 000 dollar range and still not have a baby and we know of

44:09
Yeah, it was a while ago and then ended up going commercial to the Ukraine. There’s another question, do you see that? No, cause I’ve half closed some of my screens. Okay guys, now I’ll be running the webinars. We can talk to you, right? I’ll have some Winston answer. I’m joking. That’s fine. How many embers were created from each egg collection? Okay, cool. So first round, we retrieved eight eggs.

44:30
seven of the eggs were viable to be inseminated and we got two embryos from that. Although one embryo on so they grow, I don’t, I’m not sure if you know the process with embryos, but basically they collect them, which is day zero, they inseminate them and the following days class is day one. And then, so they grow them out five days. So that it’s a fully formed blastocyst. And then if it’s going through surrogacy, they have to quarantine them. So they freeze them. We had one that did great all the way along. And this was using my sperm

45:00
one of the genetic connection to our son or daughter, which I was really hung up on, which in the end, Baker’s actually Matt’s. And I found that, you know, going through our journey, it was nowhere near as important to me as I thought it was. It’s actually not important at all. It doesn’t even register. Baker likes me better, but I thought it was important. Well, you’re the primary caregiver. I am the primary carer. Yeah. Thank you. Which I’m so grateful for. But anyway, one had made its way through to day five, looked fantastic. And we froze that. And then we got a phone call to say that one was looking a bit dodgy and that they were going to grow it out to day six.

45:30
So, you know, as intended parents, you’re frantically Googling like day six blastocysts. What does that mean? Like, will it come good? Like magic eight ball kind of vibes, like help me someone. And then you just read like millions of different things online and they all contradict each other. You’re not gonna get the answers from Google, basically, unfortunately. So- You’ll get lots of answers from Google. Lots of answers, but you won’t get your answer necessarily that you’re looking for, because no one knows. But yeah, so our day six embryo came good on day six. So they decided to freeze it.

46:00
And then the next day, we had a call from the

46:30
was our last embryo. I was just like, I literally just picked up my bag and I was like, I’m out. And everyone thought I was going to transfer. So they thought like, they’re like, Oh, good luck. Congratulations. Like, I’m so excited for you. This one’s going to work. And I’m like holding back tears. Walking through my like sunglasses on through the whole office being like, yeah, just trying to get to the car before I like broke down. And then you get home and then you just feel so helpless. Like what’s our next step? And then, you know, financially, you know, can we afford the next step? Like, can we do this again? And then I remember sitting down, by the way, there’s no short answers with me if you’ve already

47:00
Um, I’m sorry. So then, I know.

47:03
I’ll wrap it up. Second embryo transfer. Sorry. Remember they’re in Eastern States, so they’re 9.30. It’s worth it. They’re also hanging on. They are. Second embryo egg collection, sorry. We got 17, 19, 19 eggs. 15 of them were viable for transfer. Seven embryos were created and made it through until day five. The second step though, because we knew that we were going to, we didn’t just want to continue to pour money into this. So I said, what is our best way of, you know,

47:33
increasing our chances, like how can we possibly maximize our opportunity here? So I said to our embryo, sorry, our fertility specialist, can we split the eggs? Can we inseminate half with mine and half with Matt’s? They said, yeah, the only thing you have to pay for additionally is the sperm testing for Matt. So we did that and we knew that he’s kind of worked previously because he’s had two kids in the state.

47:52
proven fertility in that sense. Although it’s weird, my sperm tested better than Matt’s, but- Of course it did, of course it did. No, it legit did. So I was like, but we knew that his had like had an outcome. So, and you know, at the beginning, the fertility specialists don’t tell you everything could go wrong because they would be there all day. So they said to us, all your results are good. There’s no reason why it shouldn’t work. And then when it didn’t work, I was like, please explain. And then at that point they said, you know, sometimes DNA just does not gel. And we think that your DNA and your egg donor’s DNA

48:22
But I still was quite hung up on having a biological child. So we split half. I think we did four of Matt’s and three of mine. I came back, we did a type of testing, which has now been suspended. That’s a whole other story. Basically all my came back. One was inconclusive and the other two were not any good. And Matt’s were, one was good, one was not good, and two were inconclusive. So at that point, I really needed to sit down. I sat down with the team and I thought, everyone had said, Brandon, we’re comfortable to go with your decision. What do you feel comfortable doing? And at that point I thought, am I selfish?

48:52
hung up on having this biological connection to our child. Do I put everyone through multiple transfers? Do we attempt to transfer my three embryos and just hope? We’re paying $3,500 a transfer. Do we pay that amount and just hope that it works and put Anna through multiple transfers, us through all of the waiting, the heartache that comes with a failed transfer? Or do we put our best foot forward? Ultimately, we put our best foot forward, transferred our embryo, and we now have Baker, he’s one in three or four days. And it’s incredible. I wouldn’t change it for the world. Side note, I’ve now found out

49:22
that the testing we did that said our embryos were inconclusive or not any good actually was incorrect. So there is a chance that all of our embryos were good. So that is a fun little twist.

49:31
Fun little twist at the side, it worked for us in the end. And I think Anna’s got statistics that most, or I don’t know if I want to say this, but most teams are pregnant by their third transfer. Yeah. To 90% of surrogates that I’ve collected some data on. I mean, this doesn’t account for those that never had a baby. Like they may have had two transfers and then stopped as a team or something. So this counts of those at birth, live births at the end as surrogates, 90% of teams did it in three embryo. So it was either on the first, on the second, or on the third.

50:01
So I would class us as third supporter. Yeah, and so I, so sometimes IPs often ask how many embryos should we have? And that’s when I come back with that and go at least three. But there’s still no guarantee. And then what was the other one? But about 50% get it on the first go. So, but again, that doesn’t take into account, are these surrogates caring for gay or straight couples? Cause the straight couples, the eggs probably come from the intended mother who might’ve had her own fertility challenges where often the gay guys, if the embryos come from an egg donor,

50:31
picking a younger donor or a friend, you know, with proven fertility. So it, I don’t have, I haven’t tracked that bit. Yeah. So that’s my bit little on embryos. So co-host, have I missed any last questions? No, I’m good now. All good. Thank you for listening to this episode. To see the beautiful images mentioned, head to our YouTube channel to watch the webinar recording.

50:50
If you’re looking for more support and potentially connecting with a surrogate or intended parents, head to our website surrogacyaustralia.org to check out the resources and to learn more about SASS. Please subscribe to this podcast if you’ve found it valuable and share it with someone so they too can benefit from this conversation. Until next time, welcome to the village.