Episode 85 – James – gay dad

00:13
Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie. Thank you for sharing your time to listen to this episode. These recordings are from the regular one-hour free webinars that I run which I invite you to attend if you haven’t already. They take you through how surrogacy works in Australia, including how to find a surrogate or intended parents, there are opportunities to ask questions and you hear from a co-host each time about their own journey.

00:39
This episode, recorded in January 2025, features James. James and his husband Jim Bob, from Brisbane, became dads to their son Rupert in March 2023. Their surrogate Gemma from North Queensland was previously a stranger, whom they met at a growing families conference in June 2021. Gemma’s waters broke early at 30 weeks, resulting in quick action from old families. Gemma birthed Rupert at 32 weeks via an emergency C-section.

01:07
but he has been strong and healthy since birth. Their egg donor, Zoe, is James’s sister, and she offered to be their donor when they were teenagers. You can hear from Gemma in previous episode number 11. What an episode and a way to start the webinar series for 2025. I’ve been following James’s journey from the sidelines for years. They joined SASS in early 2021, and as you’ll hear James say, meeting with their mentor as part of the SASS program was one of the most valuable parts of their beginning journey.

01:36
Since Rupert’s birth, I’ve been hoping to have James on as a co-host and it was worth the wait, partly because Rupert is now nearly two, so the interactions he’s having with surrogate Gemma and her children are more meaningful than a newborn in many ways. They’re seeing how surrogacy keeps evolving and are enjoying watching Rupert be comfortable with his tummy auntie Gemma and her family and children. Some other highlights worth listening out for in this episode include an early

02:05
how they relied on husband will to give them a heads up, how you can understand how groups don’t survive this, and in James’s words, the amount of energy that went into me feeling like I may not connect with him as he’s not biologically mine, now feels absurd. I hope you enjoy this episode.

02:22
We’ve got some wonderful photos here of James’s journey. So we’re going to work our way through those. So perhaps we’ll just start with this first photo, James. Tell us who’s in it. Sure. So it’s myself, my husband, my sister, Zoe, and our beautiful surrogate Jemma. This is actually when we were down at the…

02:38
Gold Coast, I think we found a random cafe that we had done a scan at. Part of the ongoing activities we kind of had, it was, there was a lot of them, it was good. And I really like the fact that your surrogate jammer met your reg donor, Zoe. Now, I guess Zoe’s family, but clearly everybody knowing each other and not doing this in isolation was important to your team. Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s a weird place to start. So I’m not exactly sure where to sort of begin the journey. I think that… We can’t go back. Do you want to go back to the beginning then? No, no. We could go.

03:08
that we kind of went through as a team, this is probably a representative. The photo is an occasion of a scan, but it was probably indicative of a number of activities that you do together, which probably lends itself to sort of cementing how important it is, because you spend so much time together. Gemma was up in North Queensland, but she would come down for scans. We would go up there and you become fast friends, but you get fast friends in an incredibly intimate arrangement, in incredibly intimate

03:37
and personal and emotional kind of moments and it’s definitely a rollercoaster of extreme highs and extreme frustrations and you know, but you do it together which is the important part. It’s a journey like no other, hey?

03:54
Yeah, that’s an understatement. Yes. Yes. And particularly for two men that, you know, then having an egg donor in your life, mind you, that’s your sister, but then a woman and a surrogate, but it’s not just a surrogate, is it? It’s her family and everybody that comes along for the ride and all these things you’ve learned about women’s bodies. Oh, women. I don’t know about women. Oh, my God. The superior being, it’s a woman. And you learn that as a gay man who has not much

04:23
I don’t even remember, we were talking about it, I think it was about 16 and I think she mentioned that, you know, this is sort of when I came out and part of the reality of that is you probably never have a family, but part of a rich tapestry of comic history that Zoe and I sort of had.

04:40
discussions early on, there was never really a point where she kind of offered. We got to a point where we kind of went, it’s logically now’s the time to start to do the stuff. And then all of a sudden, we need another team member. And sort of as part of the ritual of going through the motions of uploading Facebook statuses and joining groups and putting yourself out there, we were extremely fortunate to have met Gemma in a conference scenario where we actually met her as an e-donor.

05:10
So we were probably far more and certainly my husband, it will tell you he’s far more relaxed talking to Gemma because you kind of got to put your best foot forward. I think, you know, talking briefly on the social media post stuff, we’re relatively private people.

05:25
post a lot of things on social media. So the alien kind of position you have to be put in to put yourself into this group of strangers who you know nothing about, they know nothing about you, got X number of lines of text in order to post yourself, your life and how your stable relationship, you’re financially stable, you’ve got reasonably, all of this stuff you have to put in a Facebook post,

05:55
If that’s not part of your kind of makeup, it’s extremely intimidating. And that’s step one of that sort of thing. So you kind of, like I said, the emotional kind of connection with things. So fortunately we met Gemma at a conference and we didn’t have to continue on the social kind of media.

06:11
bandwagon but unfortunately people sort of say that’s the only way you can kind of put yourself out there and you quite rightly put out there that if you don’t, if you’re not active, you don’t comment on things. I don’t comment on people’s posts, I probably should but I don’t. And so you’re sort of putting a version of yourself out there that isn’t really you, which is a very uncomfortable position to be in. So we were extremely lucky that we met

06:41
had a conversation which was there was no sort of preconceived kind of we were putting ourselves best foot forward. We kind of had a bit of a breath of fresh air because every kind of lady we encountered at this conference could

06:52
possibly be our surrogate and maybe we should put our best foot forward. So it was a really fortuitous that we had teams sort of got together the way that they did. And just to clarify for listeners that so Gemma was presenting at that conference or one of the speakers as one of the egg donors because she’s donated many times. She hadn’t necessarily been considering being a surrogate but when then she met the two of you as people can hear if they listen to her podcast episode it was um it’s a bit like falling in love really and it’s just this this click that you have with these two people and new friends and then it just it grew

07:22
there. Do you happen to remember how long it had been from when you first decided as a couple Kate we’re really going to start investigating surrogacy to that conference? Was it sort of six months? Yeah, we thought we had to have the egg donation, the egg stuff and the embryos sorted first. So I think we started in about 2020 in the sort of midst of COVID. Queensland was fed fairly well during COVID, unfortunately, too.

07:47
better than some of our southern cousins. But we still were fortunate enough to be still be able to meet with a fertility specialist and we created embryos.

07:54
2020, which is where we first encountered sort of the counseling, because you obviously have to go through counseling to create embryos before the system, if you call it the system. That was the first entry into the system where we actively took steps was 2020. And we did it because it was more of a, like I said, it was the right time. It was the right time for Zoe. It was, you know, we got married in 2020. And we kind of figured that, you know, we didn’t want to wait around with that sort of stuff. And that was kind of

08:24
to do that. Before we entered the surrogacy chapter, we actually reached out to SASS, previously we met Dwayne through SASS and

08:35
Probably one of the most valuable parts of that was the mentoring piece. You and I have talked about that, but the mentoring piece with Duane that you put me in contact with and we sat down and had coffee. We had literally had a coffee at the Blimba cafe. It was probably the thing that sort of went, like we’ve been we’ve been entertaining this idea of starting a family and we obviously we were somewhat invested because obviously in creation, embryo creation is not a cheap or an easy exercise. So we sort of committed to that point. But it wasn’t until we sort of had a coffee that we went, actually,

09:05
this is something that could probably happen. And then it was from that point on, it was probably three years till Rick was born in his premier stage. Yes, and yes, as you say, it’s that when you meet somebody, either a mentor or other people who have done this journey before you, that were you a few years beforehand, and they’ve become a parent and this really can be done in Australia, it helps to make it real, doesn’t it?

09:28
Absolutely. It changed sort of our approach to it rather than it being a sort of a passive approach. We sort of decided to then take an active approach. Dwayne gave us some fantastic advice on the Facebook groups and how to engineer with them. But that was kind of the first active step we took towards it. And then obviously the conference from there. So then let’s sort of work through the timeline. So then you met Gemma and then the chat started and then, you know, leading at some point to the embryo transfer and getting pregnant.

09:58
could summarize for us in that sorrow dating or the counseling and legal that springs to mind? Oh, look, yeah, look at it. It was a lot. It was like I said, we talked earlier about, you know, building a house. It’s far more than that, especially, I mean, if you’re also working full time. So logistically, it was quite a significant undertaking. Did you have date nights or that sort of stuff to try and catch up virtually due to the distance or it was messenger chats or how did it go? We had a messenger group.

10:25
I don’t know, flirted with each other, I suppose. Like it was kind of like, it’s such a bizarre thing to try and articulate to someone. But you know, you sort of, we’re happily married people, but we’re all of a sudden, we’re flirting with this beautiful woman, you know? Like, ah. And hopefully, you know, so it was, yeah, look, we obviously, we had a couple of catch-ups in person. So we drove up there, sort of we…

10:48
we really got along really well. Like I think, you know, the first night she sort of, sorry, this is probably the wrong tone to take, but she kind of, she chased us and got our number, which we just could not, we got home and we were kind of on, you know, floating. And so you can’t help but then kind of give, you know, give little selfies, and this is what we’re doing, and this, kind of keep the interaction going. So yeah, there was plenty of conversation, I think. I’ve never texted someone in my life as much as I’ve texted Gemma during that stage,

11:18
it was good to kind of keep in touch and then we sort of had a couple of trips up to Gladstone. We went up to Townsend. I’d never been up to Townsend, by the way, beautiful. And so what a spot to sort of spend some time and get to know someone. So it was nice. She came down here, she’s got his family down here. So we took opportunities to sort of catch up before I think…

11:38
Gemma formally offered, we kind of knew it was coming, but it was also like, you know, it was a stage that was sort of an indescribable kind of, like, oh my God, this could possibly happen, you know, so. And that, for those who are new listening, that tends to be the way it goes, doesn’t it? You date with the intention that you’re probably gonna make a team, but as often you wait until the surrogate’s ready, and then they usually make an offer. Yeah, and look, and Gemma knows, we have actually spoken to a couple of ladies

12:08
through the social media channel and we sort of caught up with some people. Maybe it was the distance, maybe it was the thing and we genuinely had this kind of like very strong connection. You know like she her husband plays rugby, we play rugby union. Like it was we just sort of met, kicked off as friends and so it was um but yeah you’re kind of dating. Like it’s it is kind of that and it’s probably the most confronting term for it because it sort of closest thing but it’s really not the same thing. You’re dating a woman and her husband too.

12:38
Oh, rather from another mother. I like it. And this is the thing, you know, so we were extremely fortunate that we just got along so well. We all had.

12:46
really common interests, we kind of had, you know, common values. And I think that the value stuff is huge. We obviously went through the process and had all the counseling. We literally threw everything we possibly could at it. If there was a, if there was an option to do, well, I mean, in Queensland, you kind of have to do group counseling. You have to do certain counseling stages, but we went sort of above and beyond all of that. We all saw counselors sort of by ourselves. And, you know, throughout this process, you kind of learn a bit about yourself, which isn’t always things that you really want to learn.

13:16
You know, like, it turns out I’m not very self-aware. So, you know, when you’re sort of being externally focused on the situation and the tasks and the things that need to happen, and you’re very focused on making sure that everyone is happy and, you know, because, you know, they’re doing this favor for us. And then, you know, you sort of have a realization that you yourself are kind of not really thinking about how you’re feeling, how you’re, and that’s kind of confronting, and things sort of, you know, turn up.

13:44
I don’t really know how to end that part. You learn a lot about yourself. You obviously build a lot of resilience. You also build a bit of a picture of how you interact. I’ve been told in the past that I’m a bit of a blunt object at times. Very early in the piece, Gemma and I kind of had a bit of a disagreement and it was probably the best thing that ever happened to us because my job, my career, my everything kind of lends itself to sort of just bulldozing through whatever needs to happen. And that’s just…

14:12
that’s not the arrangement and nothing really fits. Like you can’t really think of it like a job or a career. It’s not, you know, the closest thing is obviously family and we absolutely consider ourselves family, but that’s a really, really difficult concept to consider when you’ve met someone six months ago or four months ago, you know, like, and all of a sudden this person means the world to you and you’re so focused on making sure everything’s good. You know, you sort of, yeah, like, yeah. And there isn’t really a rule book.

14:42
You follow the basis and you hope that all the players in the team are kind of doing their job. We had, you know, situations where Gemma being somewhere removed up in Gladstone and us being down here. We can’t sort of, we couldn’t kind of, and I know this is the wrong term, but we couldn’t kind of eyeball her to make sure that she’s doing okay. So we really relied upon Will.

15:02
her husband to kind of give us a heads up and then, you know, we could kind of do something, send us something to think, to let her know we’re thinking of her, you know, but we couldn’t have done that if we didn’t have a really cohesive kind of team where we had really open lines of communication. And like I said, I mean, I don’t remember what the disagreement was, but like up front, when we kind of had a little bit of an eye came in a bit firm with something and it was, it was not the space or the way that it needed to be done. And it was good because it gave us an opportunity to go, well, how do we communicate?

15:32
How do we make sure it is because we all want this to work. The journey of sort of self-discovery is not absent from this process. I like that journey. Yeah, so true, right? You learn so much about yourself and your own partnership through this. Yeah, it’s fascinating. There’s so many interesting points that you’re saying there. I’m liking that. I’m ranting is what I’m doing. No, no. Thank you for entertaining it. Yeah. No, trust me. Like I’ve done over a hundred of

16:01
the differences in each team, but there’s sometimes a similarities.

16:05
I think it’s often conflict that helps teams. The teams that have no conflict, I’m like, yeah, whatever. But I think there’s much more growth that happens when you learn how to navigate conflict and preferably before pregnancy. But that’s a really tricky thing to test as your team unless it happens naturally. Which is why it’s so important to go through every part of the guidebook. Anyone that we’ve spoken to in the past, and like I said, we haven’t really, we’ve done reflection periods at points in time because we kind of sit back and sit on the back for Andrew and my husband and I sit there and go,

16:35
can you believe this is our life? But you don’t really think about the pathway that took you here and it would serve me nothing to say that it is hard work. And we had a dream team and I can’t stress that enough. And there is nothing that you can do that would ever repay that kind of gesture or that kind of… And you don’t…

16:59
want to try and remake it because it’s kind of you’re stuck in a situation where you kind of that’s what family do for each other and so all of a sudden we are we’re a family now and then that also means that I’ve got Gemma’s family which is there a lot too.

17:18
But we’ve just all come together and I love them dearly. And you know, like a difficult thing to describe. So I don’t know if I’m quite articulating, but I think it’s. She’s written in the chat, they are a lot. They are, and I love them all, but they are a lot. They are. And I think there’s so many valuable things here that if you, people are brand new and listening to this. Initially, people probably come into this going, I need to find a surrogate. But what you end up finding is her immediate and extended family, if you kind of do it.

17:46
well and so you’ve got to be prepared for that that there’s and that can be challenging but also beautiful and to grow your village but it can take work and energy. Absolutely and like I said I mean we’re all the better for it you know. Gemma’s mum she would head up and look after the her Gemma’s kids would fly Gemma down here to do scans and things like it like she just she she’s also part of the team like you know

18:11
getting back to your PowerPoint presentation, it’s a lot, but it’s so important that you kind of do it. It feels overwhelming looking at them in a 40 slide decks. You know, you take it one day at a time and you sort of work through it. But it’s, yeah. A lot of steps. That’s probably a good time to answer one of the questions. Alfie typed in that, in the event that the surrogate wishes to offer to help, would this happen before or after the counseling sessions? I think what is implying there is before it, it’s often then when the surrogate says,

18:41
go that then starts the counseling and legals would you agree with that? Absolutely yeah so we started counseling by ourselves we actually recommended I actually can’t remember who told us but they sort of said if you if you start a counseling session with a counselor that gets to know you then they can sort of help you personally throughout.

19:00
the journey because if you can give them the chance, so the counselor can give you a chance to get to know you before you go through this process, then that can sort of help any and again, that was that was extremely helpful for me confronting but helpful. You know, in Queensland, we have we even have a young, we had to do a psychiatric assessment, which says that we are of sound mind and we understand the nature of which we’re the relationship we’re entering and

19:25
and we’re a sound mind and I often talk about the fact that that was a very confronting exercise to do because you you learn a lot about yourself. I was more sound. You were more sound. Yes, yes. But I have a certificate that says that I’m not sound mind. So do you? Well, good point. Maybe South Australia, we don’t have that. Maybe I should come and get a Queensland one if I pass. Yeah.

19:46
Yeah, so many things that you learn here. So then one of the other photos that we’ve got here I reckon is probably an emery transfer or it’s um One of the scans getting ready for that with the famous doctor key on that Gemma has done many egg donations with Obviously lots has happened in the journey to get to this point anything you’d like to mention then about the lead-up to this point Look, we said we created our embryos with a different fertility clinic and then transferred them through to Monash which was which was a true

20:15
well it was again it was an exercise but it was a an excellent outcome because you know there was you know Monash were fantastic.

20:23
It’s not a plug, but you know, they handled it extremely well. Gemma had a previous relationship with Key Ong, who is fairly well and well known within the community, I think. And honestly, he’s a terrific guy. So it was it was it was an easy I mean, sorry, it wasn’t an easy process to transfer, but it was the right step for us to to transfer the embryos to that stage. So, like, yeah, I mean, that was that was the day we had our maccas fries and I’ve got that photo here. There you go. Yeah.

20:53
Yeah, apparently that’s the tradition and we were not messing with the tradition. And did it work first go? It did. And so you still got some embryos left in the freezer then? We do. We’ll come back. We do. Yeah. So then the pregnancy begins and so obviously via distance but so then I think one of these first photos on the left there is the finding out that you’re pregnant. Is that right? Yep. Gemma had teed up. I’m not going to look at that photo.

21:21
No, Gemma had sort of invited us up and we were obviously going to meet, so we went up to Gladstone and we had our little pee on a stick kind of reveal and it was four sticks, sorry, pee on four sticks. It was to make it. Yeah, and obviously Gemma being Gemma and Gemma is extremely thoughtful, she had the

21:46
Fortunately, it was a positive result because she made churns. So that’s a rugby reference, yes? Yes, absolutely. Yes. Zoe also said that counselling helped us learn a bit more about each other. Zoe is my female equivalent. My sister Zoe is my female equivalent, and I’m extremely, extremely lucky to have her as a sister. And she’s the same version of me. So we’re going through counselling. We learnt a bit about each other.

22:16
and ourselves. So yes, this surrogacy thing, you don’t just come in and get a baby at the end, do you? It’s an enormous process. Yes. I’m definitely not the same person before. No, indeed. So then the pregnancy went on and what’s your memory of that pregnancy for Gemma in terms of her health, but also in terms of how much contact you had during the pregnancy and able to help out at all? Oh, we had daily contacts. I think we daily, daily messages. I think like I said, we’ve returned to kind of normal kind of levels of communication these

22:45
we had daily conversations about messages, you know, about everything. There was also some pregnancy stuff scattered in there. But we just, we just got it a lot. So yeah, in terms of, in terms of along the journey, we had very open lines of communication, which I think helped us a lot because like I said, that’s not, it’s not native for myself and my husband either. So it was an important part in making sure we were on the same page, particularly being distant where Gemma was in.

23:13
Gladstone, there was, you know, Gladstone’s a slightly smaller, well, slightly smaller, so it’s a smaller community. Doesn’t necessarily have the same sort of medical facilities. So we obviously came to Brisbane for most of the medical-based stuff, but we had anticipated going to Rockhampton for the birth. Marder had, they had us in the newsletter. They were right, really prepared for us. They were making kind of a big deal, Rocky Marder, but Rupert had other plans. So after we had an initial bleeding scare a couple of weeks in,

23:43
kind of rocked us a lot. It rocked us a lot obviously, us as a team. Rupert came two months early, so at 30 weeks, Gemma’s water broke and she was airlifted to the Sunshine Coast University Hospital where we spent two weeks in.

23:59
as inpatients and outpatients close by, which was quite the bonding experience. So, yeah, we honestly, if there was, if you’re pinpointing a point in your life, that was that was quite a period of heavy emotions. But we just rallied together. It was something else. I was just going to say, so that’s unexpected. You know, you had been planning for the travel up there around the birth time and therefore Gemma and her family had been preparing for that, too. And so this was completely unexpected. So she had a family that needed to be looked after.

24:29
she’s then down there for the safety of the baby and for herself too to try and keep him cooking for a couple more weeks. So yeah, any comments on that period of time navigating all of that? Best laid plans, you know, we had, we had, like I said, in Rocky we had

24:42
We had a birth photographer, we had a doula lined up, we had it all. We had tried to cover all bases and make sure that we were doing all the stuff. And then obviously, Rupert had a different plan. That was probably the most challenging part was that period, obviously, because it was so intense and we just didn’t know what was happening.

25:02
as a heterosexual normal, normal sorry, probably shouldn’t use the term normal, but a natural kind of couple birth, you know, you kind of go through that with your partner. And we had everyone. So you know, my husband and I were kind of we obviously as a couple came out of it, just as a group, I think we all kind of commented, you can understand.

25:24
how groups don’t survive this kind of thing. And I think we’re so lucky that we had, and like I said, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna lay brought onto it, but we were so lucky that we had put in the work, the work, it wasn’t work. We love tagging out, we have love tagging out with each other, but like we put in the work up front and we spent the time together, so we got to know each other. So, you know, that argument that we had early in the piece about my delivery of whatever,

25:53
to this event, which sort of kept us in a state of flux. We all banded together really well. So I think despite the ritual and how overwhelming that pack, again, go back to the pack because the pack looks terrifying.

26:10
There’s a lot, but it’s important. And I know of some people who haven’t gone through all of that stuff and maybe haven’t fared as well as what we have. And we, like I said, we’re extremely grateful that we did, but we can’t understand why it would have, why it doesn’t work out sometimes.

26:28
Well definitely a credit to your team navigating that premature birth and then he’s been okay on the whole so then life starts to move on doesn’t it and then he eventually gets discharged from hospital. The reward for all of that period is that you now have this infant that you have to keep alive which is also terrifying. The reward is you have a newborn and no one is coming to save you. No rule book with that. No, no.

26:55
But again, like you said, even afterwards, we sort of, it’s still a pretty magical thing to sort of hang out. We went up to Australia Zoo the other day to get out. Like it’s easy and we kind of, I guess if you kind of go through that sort of stuff, it’s impossible that you aren’t gonna be as close as what we are. Unless it falls apart, but that’s a credit to you. Unless it falls apart, yeah. Which, yeah. Yeah, I might come back and ask you about that, but we’ll just finish off these photos. So then some photos that you shared with me, in the lead up to this about little Rupert, but then what’s the photo of everybody going on there? What does that photo say?

27:25
to you. This is the one of the first opportunities we kind of had after after the birth for everyone to get back together because like I said we sort of I mean the way in which it sort of fell out we transferred from the Sunshine Coast to the Gold Coast sorry Sunshine Coast to Greenslopes private and private sorry in Greenslope’s.

27:45
We didn’t know how long we were going to be in there for. So we actually, Gemma’s family, extended family actually went home and she set up shop in Greenslopes for what could have been two months. Because they were kind of, as long as he’s happy to stay in there, we’re happy to keep him in there. But, you know, circumstantially she needs to be in the hospital. So everyone kind of went home and then the very next morning he came along. So logistically, this was the first opportunity we kind of had once he was out of hospital

28:15
extended sort of team family and in our backyard. So that’s in your yard where Gemma’s husband and their kids from their together and their blended family are all there with you guys at your place. That’s a pretty special photo. Very special. Yeah. And then the weekend just gone or very recently, this is you guys camping. It is, it is. This is us when we went camping in Cougarborough and Rupert’s obviously nearly two now. So he’s…

28:38
He’s up and at them and into everything. And yeah, I mean, dad life is the best thing that’s ever happened to us. Right. And I think these photos are great to show people who are at the beginning going, this will hopefully be everybody one day, that living dad life, mom and dad life, and it’ll, that’ll keep you busy. Yep. It’s hard, but honestly.

28:56
There’s nothing wrong with it. Yeah, and that’s what we were here for, right? Yep. Right back at the beginning, you said, you know, surrogacy had some highs and some lows, some challenging times. Are there any other ones that spring to mind that are worth roaring on or some challenging times as a team or anything that you do differently? Anything we do differently? I don’t… Nah. Embryo testing. Embryo testing, sorry, yes, embryo testing. There was a miscommunication with our initial fertility specialist that there was some extra tests we could test for

29:26
we got them all, we’ve got them all. He said, oh, we could do these extra ones that would actually tell us then they would probably give us an indication of the gender. It would also test for all these extra things. I said, why wouldn’t we? And our fertility specialist heard, why would we? Because we didn’t, we were such low risk for these certain things. So I think, yeah, look, I mean, miscommunicate one miscommunication, but have haunted us for almost the entire pregnancy, because we just, it’s just something, it’s a gap.

29:55
And, you know, like I can’t stress that if there was a gap to be filled in our pathway, if there was a medical specialty, you know, we had a, we went down to the Gold Coast to a very specific test that did, you know, a lot more, more of a range of tests than the other ones. But because of a miscommunication, we missed out on one that we probably really would have liked to have had. So, I mean, you can be as diligent as you like, things don’t go to plan. So particular highs or lows, I mean,

30:21
every day there was highs, there was lows, you know, it’s hard getting to know someone, it’s like you become fast friends but you’re so invested, it’s hard to sort of know. Typically, if you know someone, a close friend of yours, you can kind of anticipate their needs, you know what they’re like, you know, the coffee order, you know, we know Jemma’s coffee order, but you know like…

30:43
Like you had to learn it. Yeah. You have to learn these things. And it’s, I find it a fascinating thing. It’s, it’s a very intimate thing that you’re doing because you usually only have a child with your life partner. Um, I was going to get Jim Bob’s coming on board. Sorry. Yes, we’re going to have a guest. Rip it down. Having a guest appearance here from the other half. Jim Bob. Hello. Would you like to add something? I put Rupert down in record time. I’d like that one. Got that on record. Everybody. Good work, dad. I just wanted to say like a massive hi from me.

31:13
coming was this kind of moment watching Gemma and Will’s kids play with our kid Rupert and like the parents, Gemma and Will and us, kind of sitting back and that bonding was like they were going to be Macs. We knew they were going to be Macs but watching them, watching Rupert react to them and like when we went to Australia Zoo recently that’s kind of what I was really excited for was like oh what’s Rupert going to think? What’s Eve going to think? What are they going to do with him? Like you know how is he going to, what is he up to? Is he going to kind of be able to say their names

31:43
It’s where parents together now in the relationship kind of takes on a different meaning. It’s evolved again. Yeah, yeah. It’s higher for me. There are many, many highs but like almost up.

31:53
Afterwards, you kinda go, I’m just gonna be a parrot now, that’s just what’s gonna happen. Gemma and I are gonna be friends for friends and family forever, but you don’t realize, oh, actually, our kids are gonna be something special too. Like, they talk about cousin Rupert and stuff, so like, they’re gonna have this bond, and like, I know James, I’ve been listening from the other room, and I know James has mentioned like, how integrated our families are, but like, it doesn’t stop with the adults. It’s a lot.

32:16
more than that. It’s the grandparents as well, but it’s down to the kids and I don’t know how much further it goes, but it was very exciting for that realization for me that like, yeah, it’s a beautiful thing to see and it’s like…

32:27
I get real excited about how excited Evie is to see him every time. Can I just say on behalf of all surrogates, this is the dream. Hearing the parents, the IPs, valuing the surrogates children. So it’s one thing if the team falls apart and they break the surrogates heart, but if you break the hearts of the children of the surrogates, that’s extra painful. And so for you to value that relationship and not just see it as, oh we have to keep in touch with the surrogate and her kids, but you’re actually excited to see the surrogates kids

32:57
extra village, those extra connections that your child gets to have and therefore you’ve got care and love for Gemma’s children as well but that doesn’t necessarily just happen naturally. That’s a credit to your team that you continue to value that and I think that’s the dream. I think that’s what for surrogates in Australia who do it altruistically, this is what we hope to have come out of it and even with distance like you guys have, you see each other from time to time in holidays when you can and you’re valuing it. So

33:26
are a credit to how surrogacy can be done here in Australia? This time is a god sandwich. Face time, Face time, Face time. It’s uh Rupert is like a lot of Jemma’s kids. He’s mostly looking at himself but I know they love seeing him on the front. Yes and what language might Rupert be using to describe Gemma? Is she like an auntie or a tummy mummy or? Tummy auntie is what we’ve kind of heard. Tummy auntie I like that. And Zoe’s eggy auntie. Eggy auntie awesome and over

33:56
time as he learns that but it’s again fantastic that you’re not waiting till he’s a certain age to start telling him the story it’s just being part of the language that you use. We’re probably integrating a bit too early it doesn’t have a clue. The psychologist that I’ve had on and the research is showing no that the more the language is just a part of it then easier it’s gonna be for him and you and it’s just normalizing it so yeah it’s a wonderful way to have a

34:26
cousin type of thing but um yeah even though we live locally it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s done you know quite in that way and that hopefully that’s how every team sees it but of course every team will find the balance for what suits them.

34:38
how it all works there, but yeah, well done guys. And so James, we did mention before that there are some embryos in the freezer and that we were talking before the webinar started about the enormity of how to do surrogacy well in Australia and that time commitment of building it up with a new person. Have you considered a sibling project in Australia or not? And what might that look like? Obviously yes, but like, you know, we kind of, we’ve had such an experience in such an incredible team arrangement. How do you replicate that? You can’t replicate that.

35:08
that. So we kind of we’re a bit lost to be honest. We have you know like I have my sister Zoe and I actually have a brother Brad but he hasn’t given me his embryo so I don’t really care. But like I mean Zoe will continue to be one of the best parts of my life because she’s she’s she’s and she’s my sibling as well. Previously we would have probably and I’m only talking to myself so I can probably be as honest as you like. I thought that a

35:38
I think looking into the community and kind of seeing people go, look, we’d love to do a sibling journey. And there’s people out there who are desperate to get what we have. And we are so lucky we never have another baby. Then, you know, we’ve obviously been as, you know, as fortunate as we possibly can be. But, you know, now we’re parents and we’ve got Rupert. And I’d love for him to have an arranged, like a relationship like I have with my sister, with a sibling. And so you kind of owe it to Rupert

36:08
explore what that looks like. But then, you know, reflecting on how grateful we are, how lucky we’ve been to date, and trying to overlay the process and the hoops and things, which they are enormous. They’re an enormous undertaking, it is an enormous undertaking to do.

36:27
And now we’re going to do that with a two year old. Like, you know, like without detracting his quality of life, we kind of have to sort of start this project. How do you approach something to sort of create a relationship that is not the same as Gemma, Will and our team? Like, you can’t possibly have the same relationship. No, you can’t, you know.

36:49
troll copy and so you know you wouldn’t want to yeah no that’s right it would have to be it’s it’s new own thing but yeah we can understand why there are options that oversees options in some ways could be an option yeah yeah exactly it does it does open those up and previously that wasn’t something that we really had um

37:06
a huge amount of interest in doing. And now, maybe that’s kind of our avenue. Where we find ourselves at the start of this kind of stairwell. You gotta choose a path somewhere, and a different path again. But maybe that’s all we need, who knows? Indeed. Well, I feel like we’ll check in with you in a couple of years’ time and see what comes from this, eh? Sure. You know, as people might be listening and might be like, oh, somebody in Australia might go, yeah, I already know you, this is great, I’ll offer. But you just never know, right? Absolutely.

37:36
time commitment to, and particularly as you said, having a basically a two year old doing travel is not as easy just to drop everything and get to Gemma if need be. And not Gemma, a different surrogate, so yeah. Well, is there anything else then that is in your notes that you wanted to make sure we mentioned or have we roughly covered at all? I think, look, I probably haven’t covered the self discovery thing, but I think, I think I would feel remiss to say to people you won’t change yourself through this process. I mean, it’s a life changing process.

38:03
An example, I’m biologically, it’s my sister’s egg and my husband’s sperm. And leading into this, I absolutely had, and I can only identify it now because it’s well past it and I could only laugh. But the amount of energy that went into something like me feeling like I may not connect with him because he’s not biologically mine.

38:24
now feels absurd. But at the time, I can tell you it was not something that was, you know, it kind of crippled me at points going, I’m doing all this stuff, but you know, you’re not gonna be mine. And that couldn’t be further from it. So like, I use that as an example. But I think I think you have to go into it knowing that you’re gonna come out.

38:47
kind of a different person and a better person I hope, a better person but definitely definitely definitely different. Definitely different, Jim Bob’s not sure there but and I think you’re right because sometimes the intended mums are faced with the reality that they might need an egg donor as well as a surrogate so they’re also faced with that same genetic challenge or even sometimes in the two guys situations they don’t have a sister so there is no genetic connection in some way at all to the second dad but and one of my two dads were in the same boat the one that wanted to be the genetic father

39:17
then we’re not producing the strongest embryos and so then we had to make, he had to make that decision and genetics don’t make a parent and you guys know who’s dad, Rupert knows who his dads are and and that’s all that it is. You’ve been there since the beginning and caring for him and raising him and and that’s that’s parenting. But it’s also okay to not be okay at the beginning there and some people might not be able to move past it and that’s okay too but it’s also okay to seek some counseling and to talk about these things and to

39:47
Did you get okay with it before Rupert was born then or it wasn’t until he was born and that it changed for you? Probably couldn’t tell you. Yeah, okay. Well then that says that probably says to me it wasn’t definitely okay during the journey.

40:00
Oh no, the whole time during the journey I had a little gremlin on my shoulder about it. I cannot underestimate, understate how I was hung up on that. Yeah, yeah. And like I said, and now I laugh at how much energy went into it, but at the time it was very real. Yes, and I think that’s fantastic to verbalize these things because you’re making that real for other people listening and going, I feel the same, and normalizing that. So thank you for sharing that. That’s really valuable.

40:28
I will just say a little funny story. So Zoe and I biologically contributed. Zoe’s partner, Pontas, is Rupert’s absolute favorite person in the world. And James is the flavor at the moment. So Zoe and I kind of sit back going, what’s wrong with us? And like…

40:44
Rupert’s off having his best life with James and Pontus and we go, well, no idea, it doesn’t matter. No. Yeah. My seed and my egg, where are you off to buddy? So it’ll be come round in circles, different flavours of them are as you say. So we’ve already had it. Yep. The cycle. Yep. Beautiful. Well, again, you guys are a credit to surrogacy done well in Australia. You’ve built up a beautiful team there together and that seems to be ongoing and that seems to be the plan for the future. Modern families.

41:10
made in different ways there and expanding the village so that Rupert grows up with a bigger village because it’s okay to have more people loving on your kid right? Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for joining me. If you’d like to see the photos shared in this webinar presentation head over to our YouTube channel to watch the webinar. You can head to surrogacyaustralia.org for more information about surrogacy. Also check out our Zoom monthly catch-up sessions which are a great way to connect with others in the surrogacy community.

41:39
Attending a Zoom is scary the first time, but there’s only ever one first time. We have all been beginners at some stage. As we say, it takes a village to raise a child, and in the case of surrogacy, it takes a village to make a child. So welcome to the village.