Episode 65 – Laura – surrogate

00:00
Thanks for watching!

00:13
Welcome to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie. Thank you for sharing your time to listen to this episode. These recordings are from the regular one-hour free webinars that I run, which I invite you to attend if you haven’t already. They take you through how surrogacy works in Australia, including how to find a surrogate or intended parents, there are opportunities to ask questions, and you hear from a co-host each time about their own journey.

00:40
This episode, recorded in July 2024, features Laura. Laura and husband Justin live in Adelaide with their three children, and she birthed a little girl, Abigail, as a surrogate in December 2023. The parents, Candace and Robert, were previously strangers whom they met through the Facebook communities. Laura expressed milk for five and a half months and even continued to do some direct feeds until four and a half months. Their team had some roadblocks along the way, so it took them a few years to get to birth.

01:10
This episode contains some fantastic examples of navigating post-birth logistics, including the IPs, intended parents, well now just parents, staying at Laura’s house for nine days after birth and how Laura continued to breastfeed when they saw each other, but that there was no issue with Abby bonding with her parents. She certainly knew who her mum and dad were. Also a great example of how to offer help during pregnancy for the IPs.

01:35
to notice if there have been changes in the way the surrogate and her family live. I guess it’s about picking up on the subtleties of change and being able to communicate openly. Laura talks about the impact surrogacy had on her kids, how they can feel lost at the end of the project and miss spending time with the IPs. I hope you enjoy this episode and find some great insights for you to consider for your own journey, be that currently or in the future. You might come back and listen to this one as a team at some point.

02:03
So Laura, thank you for joining us. I guess take us back to the beginning. Why did you want to be a surrogate in the first place? And then eventually how did you find your IPs? So I’ve got three kids all a year apart, all a little bit ahead of schedule. So we seem to just fall pregnant pretty easy, but we were always surrounded by a family and friends that struggled, or even before I had my first.

02:24
I thought like, you know, one day if I could help somebody, it would, yeah, it would be a great thing to do. And I used to want to be a surrogate when I was like 14 and I’m not even completely sure. I think I watched some movie and then I’m like, oh, that’s really cool. But it was an American movie. So like, it’s very different over there. But I did too. I remember being 14 and say to my friends, oh, if you can’t have kids, I’ll have them for you. Yeah, before we’d even been pregnant. When I met my husband, I told him it’s the thing I want to do one day, like in the first week of meeting him.

02:54
Yeah. Yeah, cool. Isn’t it amazing? You just knew it’s always that calling. Then you ultimately had your three children. How were your pregnancies with them? Smooth or tricky? Yeah, so with my kids really easy. I didn’t get any morning sickness or issues. All natural, like intervention free births. So I liked the pregnancy. I liked the giving birth part. So. Me too. And so how old was your youngest then when you finally went, yep, now’s time. Let’s start looking into this. I reckon she started.

03:21
Kindy that year, so I think she was four.

03:24
I remember meeting you at one of the catch ups then when you had your little… I think she just turned four. I bought my other daughter Charlotte who was five at the time. So yeah. And so then you joined the South Australian community and started looking for IPs. Did you naturally feel that you were wanting to carry for IPs who are a male female couple or for a gay couple? Did you have a preference or with coming into a vision of what you had imagined? Originally, I came into it wanting to carry for same sex. So two guys.

03:53
But then yeah, I just watched on the pages and saw all the different people join and chatted to a few different people and yeah, I thought well I shouldn’t have like, I mean, it’s fine for people to have that but I thought well I don’t want to sort of have a, how do I explain it? Like I’m only going to look at people, like a male couple, like I’ll keep it open to anybody kind of. Yeah, I know Sarah, Danny who hosts the Zoom monthly, she actually did want to carry for a female because she wanted to make someone a mum. Yeah.

04:19
And so that was her calling there. And so then do you remember how long you’d been in the community before you eventually did find your IPs, Candice and Robert? Well, I know we met them at the very first catch up. Right. And at most of them, yeah, most of them that I attended and we always spoke and everything. Can you remember the year and month of that first catch up? I’m just trying to work out the timeline until you eventually- Ooh, 2021. Right, yep. I think like the first catch up was February 21, I reckon. Yeah, so for you from the time you came into the community to the time you birthed, it was sort of-

04:48
two and a half years. Yes, I reckon it was about two and a half years, yeah. Just trying to give people, I guess, a timeline or time frame for how long to expect there. And so then, as you say, so you’d met your IPs through the catch-ups and then what struck up just conversation chats from there? Yeah, mainly Facebook messages and stuff, and yeah, chatting memorable catch-ups. And after a while, I invited them over to our house. I think that was after maybe six to eight months after the first catch-up. Yes, yeah.

05:18
something about those IPs that drew you to them in particular? I guess it was just easy to talk to them. Like we had things in common and got along and everything. I found like at the catch-ups, I’d try and talk to quite a few people and it was very sort of awkward small talk.

05:35
If that makes sense. Whereas we could just, the conversation flowed nicely. Yeah. Were those catch-ups overwhelming at all as a new surrogate in terms of, Oh, she’s an available surrogate. Did it feel at all like that? No, not at all. No, I didn’t get that. I’ve heard that, but I didn’t get that. Good. That’s good. They were overwhelming because I don’t like crowds, but. Fair enough.

05:55
I know your husband Justin has been, well, I was going to say on board because I’ve physically seen him at the catch up. So he’s been, you know, coming along and doing this journey with you too. Was he on board with the idea most of the time and was he helping you pick IPs or was sort of more your pick? Yeah, well, he was always supportive and came along and stuff, but he, it was pretty much completely up to me. Mind you, he knew that I was very much looking for, especially the, especially when it came to the mail half, but I wanted someone that he could talk to that they got along and yeah. That’s a good point there.

06:24
that’s probably is that a good tip or advice for the future teams too if the surrogate has a husband or a partner that the partners connect with the IPs as well? Yeah I think in a way I was looking for that more because because I’m shy and I’m going to be awkward with people for a while so I was like well he’s very outgoing and confident so I find I’m more trying to matchmake him with someone and but and yeah him and um well the baby’s father now Abbie’s father they get along really well so yeah.

06:50
Wonderful. Okay, so then I suppose that took you into the dating territory and spending time getting to know each other as friends and

06:58
discussing all the surrogacy stuff. Is there anything that you’d like to, you know, revisit or summarize for us in any of those periods that spring to mind as significant? In the dating phase, did you say? Yeah. Well, as well as making sure your partner gets along with them and stuff, make sure like, I guess I was very attuned to my kids’ interactions with them. Yeah, and how they were with the kids. And how were they with the kids? Yeah, no, they were really good, especially the father. Yeah, they are, yeah, always out playing on the trampoline with them and carrying them around on his shoulders until they got too heavy.

07:28
moan about it every time they see him that they can’t go on his shoulders. Wow. I do remember I think you telling me once in you know as friends sending messages that it’s almost as though they became kids themselves and just sort of mucked in with your kids. Yeah. I might go to the photos then because that can be a sort of a spark for the conversation because I think we’ve got a photo here of them spending some time with your kids. So tell us what was happening in this photo is well we’ve got the one on the right there that’s your that’s Candice and Robert with one of your kids. Yeah with Charlotte,

07:58
I think.

07:59
So you did some activities together that involved the kids as well as sometimes just adult catch-ups or mainly with the kids too? No a bit of both yeah we definitely did about maybe 30% was just us because you know it can be hard to organize that but yeah no we just basically we’d invite them along when we went out wherever with the kids like playgrounds the beach whatever and yeah and then together we’d go do things like escape rooms and bowling and things like that. Yes and what’s

08:29
minute drive. Right, so that worked out well that of all the IPs in Adelaide that they were near you. Yeah, because we don’t mind driving, we didn’t necessarily mind the distance that much, but yeah it’s lucky. Yeah that worked out. Alrighty, so I think the next photos are of births, so there’s quite a bit that happens in between these photos to birth. So then once you’ve officially offered to them at some point, I guess then you go on the path of the counseling and legals and engaging with the IVF clinic. Tell us how that whole process went, I’m assuming it

08:59
I know that we offered like just before Christmas. So we waited a bit to start things because it hit the busy period. As far as the medical goes, that all went pretty smoothly. It took a long, long time because of a lot of unnecessary appointments, but ultimately like everything was fine. The counselling, we had to change counsellors. So that took quite a bit of time out of it. Do you want to expand on that as to why you trained? Or we’ll just skim over that. We did all of our required sessions with a counsellor and it all seemed to be fine. Nothing was ever flagged

09:29
the end. She said that she was concerned about me doing it at this point because of certain diagnosis but I was absolutely fine. And yeah, so she said come back to me in six months but that was a possibly six months so we thought that could potentially be a very long time. So instead we went with Katrina Hale who was wonderful, she is wonderful.

09:51
And yeah, she had no issues. So yeah, I put about a six month delay because it took quite a while to get an appointment with Katrina. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter now. But looking at the time frame, if you offered at the end of 2021 and got pregnant at the start of 2023, then took a year to get through all of the paperwork, essentially. Well, it depends how many embryo transfers it took as well. But yes, it sounds like that part of the paperwork took me.

10:14
months for your team. Yeah, well, it was only the second transfer and like back to back transfers. So four weeks apart, it was, yeah, I feel like it was all fronts. First, it was the counseling have to go into a different counselor, then have to change lawyers. Why was that? Oh, OK, you don’t have to. The lawyers supported the decision of the counselor.

10:32
Right. Without knowing anything. Yeah. And then yeah, the fertility clinic, it was, yeah, there was a lot of mess around with like, come in for an appointment, which means taking a day off work, driving an hour into town and everything. And it would be like to give me a form, like a blood test form. And then I’ll go do this blood test, then come back for another appointment. So yeah, there was a lot of dragging there. Yeah. And there was never any like any extra things that needed to be checked up or anything. It was just slow.

11:00
Yes, IVF clinics can drag it out and that’s the inconvenience of surrogacy too sometimes I find is can get a bit overwhelming for surrogates and navigating that with your own family and work. Yeah. So then as you say, so then you got through that, had to, they were the road bumps I was referring to in the introduction there of the counselling, found a good counsellor, one that worked for your team there and then eventually got to embryo transfers and as you say it worked the second go. So they.

11:27
had some embryos already made from their eggs and sperm? Yeah, yeah, they’d already had some of their own, yep. Yep, okay, so then how was the pregnancy for you? Similar to your own, harder? Not at all, it was much harder. Yeah. I got really bad morning sickness for the first four months, at least, which yeah, I’d never experienced before. I didn’t know what people were complaining about, now I very much do. Yeah, a lot of…

11:52
pain issues at the second half once the morning sickness eased up, other things started. Pelvis. Yeah. Yeah, me too. And that’s harder than surrogacy, isn’t it? Cause we often come to surrogacy because we had positive experiences and you just never know what the next pregnancy is gonna be like, do you? Yeah. Did you feel a bit hard done by going, this isn’t what I signed up for? No, well like, cause I’ve been around a lot of pregnant women I know it’s just- I’m more of you as I got lucky the first three times and then it was just standard before.

12:18
Like I don’t think I got unlucky or anything. I mean, she’s healthy. I was healthy. So yeah, it’s a little bit. Did you need some types of support during pregnancy for, is there anything in particular that your IPs were able to help out with? I’ll preface that by saying surrogates are often very independent women who run their own households and navigate their kids and juggle everything. So they’re not often used to asking for help. And even if there is help having help done in the way that works for us or for our family and our style can be really tricky. So was there anything in particular that your IPs or

12:48
team did during pregnancy to to help out or to be there in support? Yeah well you’re right I’m like the worst for asking for help so like you say a lot of surrogate. They made some meals and would sometimes come around and help clean up a little bit. I need a lot more help but… Yeah can you give an example of what more help would have been helpful? Taking the kids out so I can sleep. Yes. Like I would work all day and then get home and I…

13:13
absolutely needed to have just a half an hour nap every day or I just and yeah that normally involved me putting earplugs in my other kids around the house. Yes, I was the same I needed naps once the kids were home and had a snack and so I mean that’s is that some good advice for future teams there to get to the point where uh where your IPs are trained up enough to take your kids out of the house for some peace and quiet is that something that if you could go back in time and do it again you’d get to? Yeah um I’m just trying to think like they definitely babysat them before I was pregnant and stuff

13:42
I’m not sure, I would assume they’ve taken them out at some point or another. But yeah, like I guess just that’s something we should have discussed more and been.

13:50
more clear on but I didn’t know I’d get so sick and tired so. Yep and so then that brings us you know towards the time of birth did it go to plan how was the day of birth I think I’ve got some photos here of that. Yeah I guess everything went to plan so she was born at 40 weeks and five days which was really good because there was a lot of push because of her size she was nearly 10 pounds and they wanted to induce it 39 weeks so I had to push and push that that’s not happening. Luckily my IAPs did support me

14:20
She naturally came five days past, so not too bad. And yes, she was a big girl, but everything was still what I wanted. Yeah. And when you look at these photos here, of part of the handover moment, what are you thinking or feeling in these photos? Yeah, happy and proud. Absolutely, you should be very proud. You created life and you made a mum and dad. And what a head of red hair she’s got, hey? Yes, beautiful little red hair. It’s only got redder if she’s got older. Oh my goodness, it’s gorgeous. Yeah.

14:49
We’ll see some photos of that here. So then we’ve got some photos, not necessarily in order here, because she’s, you know, we’ve got some newborn and then some photos here of her sitting up and great big smile on her face. And then, yes, I know for me sometimes it’s nice to see photos of the baby, but I often had the bond more with the parents and making I’d made them dads. So for you here, you know, there’s a photo here of Candice with her daughter, Abby, you know, you made her a mum. Is that the sorts of things that you think when you see her being mum? Yeah, yeah. I like watching them interact with her.

15:19
and cuddle with her and everything. I like watching how she’s very clingy with them. I’m lucky she still lets me hold her. She won’t let my husband.

15:29
Yes, and has the types of parents that they’ve become and how they their style has it been what you anticipated? Oh, and if not has that felt odd at all? Um, yeah, I guess mostly what I anticipated I mean you don’t really know how anyone’s gonna handle it until they have a child because everyone thinks they’re gonna be perfect and then they Have one and they’re like, oh, this isn’t actually that easy. Um, I think the early days it was hard because if any other friends had just had a baby and Like in a nice way if they were trying to do something like swaddle the baby

15:59
oh I’ve done it three times would you like some help like I’ll show you what to do. Whereas I felt really bad like…

16:04
I couldn’t step in for them and show them basic things that I would have no issue with anyone else because I felt like I was overstepping. But I ended up just anything that I thought, oh, I could help with this, but I don’t want to do it. I then asked my husband Justin and he would do it. And then I felt like, good. So that’s like distance. It wasn’t judging or anything. It was just something like, oh, somebody showed me this when mine was little and it helped. So I’d like them to know that. But yeah, I don’t want to step in.

16:29
If that makes sense. That is a fantastic example. I think most surrogates feel like that. Yes, it’s a strange dynamic that if it was just a friend and their baby, we’d help. But because we carried this child, but we know it’s their baby, but we don’t want it to look like we’re trying to own this child and we want it back and we’re telling them how to be parents. We’re just trying to be their friend. Yeah, it’s a really fine line. It’s a really strange dynamic, isn’t it? And we spent the first nine days together, so like they’re at our place. So, yeah. Tell us more about that. So they. So we’re in hospital.

16:59
and then they came to your house and stayed. So your friendship had got to that point and that was part of what you’d agreed as a team post-birth, was it? Yep. Candice and I spent one night in hospital together and then they they have a caravan.

17:10
that they actually, because I was worried about them being in the house, because I was worried my children would be in the room every two seconds, basically, wanting to see the baby. So they had a caravan and we’ve got a lot of land. So they parked out the front of our house and stayed in there pretty much just overnight. They were in the house all during the day. We didn’t really agree to a set time, but I could tell they were very much just following my lead, which was good. Like they didn’t ask me. I could tell they were just, so yeah, they waited till like I said, Oh, look, do you want to go home? Do

17:40
Yeah, it ended up being longer than I thought, but it was good. I needed it. So, and it gave my milk a chance to come in because I did every feed in those nine days. So, yeah. And so for people thinking that through, you did every feed in those nine days, which meant every couple of hours you were there and as a team, you know, bringing the baby to you for feeds. But as you said, you’re just all hanging out in the house during the daytime. So it was a very intimate time together.

18:04
be part of that. At night Robert would come in very sheepish and knock on my door like oh she’s hungry. Yes. But honestly most the time I wasn’t asleep like I think they assume I was asleep. Most of the time I was just pacing my bedroom because it took a bit of adjustment like everyone says like oh there’s no baby kicking me in the tummy anymore and like I wouldn’t have handled it well if they went straight back to their house. Even the caravan felt too far away overnight but she also slept like a little angel from day one so um a lot of hours in between. It’s really

18:34
valuable to hear that how even you were very close together, you know, basically living together for those nine days and having lots of cuddles and it was still an adjustment. It just shows that, you know.

18:45
enormity of what our bodies go through for this year. We’ve got some other photos here of your husband Justin with her and your children. So I think you mentioned though has she changed now she doesn’t let him cuddle her? No she got very clingy a few months ago. She’ll let me hold her but she’s very high alert like for anyone that has any concerns about the whole direct feeding like I did a lot of it and people worry about the impact on bonding. She knows who her parents are

19:15
them. Like they have to be in line of sight. She’s yeah very in tune to that and no, if Justin looks at her she starts crying. He’s not allowed to hold her.

19:25
Oh dear. What’s it like seeing these photos of your kids with her? Yeah I love watching the kids with her, that’s probably the best bit. And I guess sometimes people at the beginning wonder, oh how have your kids gone? Did they understand that it wasn’t a brother or a sister that was coming home? Yeah they seem to. They still say things now which make me think they don’t. Like even the eldest who’s 10 in a few days, he’ll refer to Abby as his sister and I’m like well…

19:49
like she’s not your sister and we’ll have a little talk and he’ll be like, well, you grew her so she is. Like he fully understands that she was never coming home. Like she wasn’t a sibling. Like, you know, she’s not gonna live in the same house and it doesn’t stop them asking for her every day. But they also do that with our other friends’ baby, so. How often would you see each other now? Probably once every two weeks, two, three weeks. Yep. And is that about right and what you thought or it’s not quite?

20:15
What was planned? Was it going to be more frequent? Well, we probably didn’t talk about it as much as we should have. It’s a bit hard to remember because I mean, even before the transfer, we finished the counseling like a year before that. So in hindsight, we should have done some sort of refresher counseling because everybody kind of forgets what was discussed and everything. Did you do any counseling during the pregnancy at all as a team or individually? Individually, I think I did one or two sessions. Yeah, not all that much. But yeah, I was hoping I was looking at like once a week, but then realistically,

20:45
yeah everyone’s so busy and um yeah when you’re trying to fit everything in. Does get busy doesn’t it? So just got last couple of photos here of all the babies that you grew and then of you having some cuddles and

20:58
got a photo at the end there of you doing some breastfeeding there. Which is different sizes of Abby there, isn’t she? Yeah. The red hair, was that a surprise to everybody? Was that expected? No, it was a surprise because parents don’t have red hair. Nobody in the family that they were aware of has red hair. So we were like, oh, okay. And then Candice chased it down and like her grandma or great grandma or someone had red hair and yeah, I don’t know. It took us a little while to work it out. Yeah, that’s where it came from.

21:28
feeds, you said until four and a half months. So was that when you were seeing each other once a week, once a fortnight type of thing, or I guess in the early days it was a little bit more often. Is that essentially what you do? Just pop her on the boob when you were there for a feed? Yeah, so at that point I reckon it was about once a week because I was expressing so I had to collect milk. So yeah, it would have been once a week. And for however long they were there, whether it was the day or a few hours, it was usually quite a while. I’d just do every direct aid when she wanted. It like, yeah, massively boosted my supply when I needed to pump. So it was very helpful.

21:58
with her. I would have done it for longer but four and a half months was when she hit the clinging phase and she decided that feeding from me she couldn’t see mommy and daddy so we weren’t going to do that anymore. Yeah. She’d awkwardly be trying to turn her neck and watch them and I’m like yeah no that’s not gonna work. The two things I want to say there is that just shows that babies can be breastfed once a week and they still know what to do. People feel that they might not latch and then also a credit to your team there that the IPs felt comfortable, all now parents, to have that

22:28
didn’t feel threatened by you that was did you feel that from Candice and Robert that they felt comfortable with that or did it ever get awkward? I’m pretty sure they felt comfortable like it. Oh no the first nine days because it was pretty much a greed and it’s very hard to pump for those first few days but we really wanted her to have colostrum and everything. I think it was the next few visits after they went home that she’d start crying and sort of none of us are very good with communication. It would just get a bit awkward it’s like I want to feed her but I don’t know if it’s gonna make her them.

22:55
uncomfortable, but I’m pretty sure they want me to feed her, but they don’t want to ask, especially if I’m in the middle of something. So like a few times I’d just go heat up a bottle, like a bottle of milk, express milk, and eventually, yeah, Candice would be like, you know, you can just feed her and I’m like, okay, like, because I was very on edge because I know it can make some people uncomfortable, but I didn’t sense it. I didn’t see anything. Like Candice would usually be sitting right next to me watching Abi or talking to me, and I think, at least they didn’t have to go heat up a bottle and everything. It’s easier, right?

23:25
together. It was good. Um didn’t have to bring bottles. I just feed her out in public. So yes it’s the right temperature on tap. It confused a lot of people. Yes. In public very much so. It’s a beautiful way of having a village. It’s like having the old you know. Yeah. Children can’t be breastfed by multiple people. So wonderful. Well we’ve got through all of those beautiful photos. You did mention there though.

23:47
that we each weren’t very good at communicating. Is there anything that you would go back and do differently then? Or is there any advice that you would give then to IPs and surrogates listening about how to work through that or how to overcome it? I’m not sure I can give much advice since I’m not sure I’ve overcome it. Okay. I guess when it comes to, if it’s things like for the surrogate to communicate that she needs help.

24:09
I guess it’s important for IPs to be aware that a lot of surrogates are independent and won’t like to ask for it. So just pay attention, like the way her family eats. So if it’s all home cooked meals every night, or if it’s a lot of take, you know, however they eat or however they keep the house, especially if you notice that changing in the pregnancy, then

24:30
My suggestion would be to like zone in a like offer helper. Yeah. I don’t know if I’m making any sense, but if you see something changing as to the way they used to live, then I think it’s important to offer it all. And as, and yeah, I think it’s important for like IPs to sort of have support outside of the team in place for themselves as, um.

24:50
People that understand the journey that they’re going on as well, the complexities of it, do you mean, or for their emotional support? Like, well, other IPs, or other P’s, I guess, that can sort of give ideas on how to help the surrogate and then, but also, I just mean like family and friends to, or to check in on how the team’s going and sort of as, as a reminder, like a prompt. So if you make a promise to the surrogate that something’s going to happen, have somebody to check in with you that isn’t the surrogate.

25:18
to make sure that that happens. Yeah. I don’t know how to make sense. But.

25:22
Yeah, I think that’s some good advice there. The two things I’m hearing there is that making sure the IPs have support from their friends and family who understand what they’re going through so that, because the IPs are usually the ones directly giving you and your family the support. But sometimes it could come from further afield if the IPs, friends and family wanted to help, or if they could be helping the IPs. I think that’s where I see the value in the village. If the IPs have connected with other now parents through surrogacy, that they can share stories with and get ideas, even have a vent from time to time.

25:52
gig being IPs, it’s a hard gig being surrogates, just to share that knowledge around.

25:56
I think that’s a really valuable suggestion that you’re making there. So you’re sort of implying that perhaps it was a little bit closed, that there weren’t as many connections as would have been valuable. Yeah, I think on both ends, well, the same applies to surrogates. Definitely have other surrogates, have your team in place, even before a transfer, but even if possible before the legals and counselling. Because if that becomes hard, you need those people, so yeah. Yeah, having other people that understand what you’re going through, because sometimes your own friends and family

26:26
haven’t done surrogacy before so they don’t understand the complexities of the clinic, counseling and legals. Yeah. Are there any other particular things then about your journey you’d like to reflect on or wisdom you’d like to pass on for future teams? The only thing that I reckon that I didn’t talk about that’s important is like obviously for after the birth you should be more clear on how often the catch-ups are but also like how it’s gonna work. Working around everyone’s busy schedule. But one of the things that we found hard is the kids

26:56
really close with Abby’s parents and then, oh, and it’s not, it’s not their folder or anything, but they felt like all of a sudden, oh, they’ve got a baby so they don’t want us anymore. And yeah, they’ve said quite a few upsetting things even now. So I guess just put aside some time to make sure that the surrogates kids still know that you care for them and everything. And I think now that Abby’s on the move, like they’re more focused on being with her every second.

27:22
But for a while, they’re very like, oh, they’ve got the baby, so we’re not important. And I honestly feel the same about my team as well. It’s funny, though, because when I have actually brought it up in conversation with the dads, which has been an uncomfortable conversation to have that in terms of, but what were you expecting in terms of we did that to help you out while you’re pregnant and looking after your kids? Now you’re not pregnant. So we don’t need to take your kids out on their own to the park. You would come with them now. And so it’s that sort of I get that. But my kids were four and six when I birthed.

27:52
not get that, that they saw Matt and Brendan in the last 10 weeks of pregnancy, that’s what we saw them every week in some capacity and then that stopped and so it makes we as the adults understand that the project ended and now there’s a baby but it can be hard for the kids if that doesn’t continue and we don’t expect it to continue quite in the capacity but it did but having something special for the kids to still feel like they’re a part of it so it’s not just the child that they’re having the connection with they miss the parents that they had.

28:19
that mod with. So for your own team there is there anything you would do differently? I guess you’ve kind of said it then in some ways making that plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah just be more clear on how things are going to look after which yeah and and almost really spelling it out it’ll feel weird to almost sort of script it in some ways how often where’s it going to happen like is it their house is it your house is it at a park and why but I think if we can sort of

28:42
blame it on the kids so to speak, going the kids are gonna need this, then it doesn’t seem quite so needy as us and sorry asking for that. We were very casual on like, oh, you’ll be like family, so we’ll see you as often as we see family. And then somebody pointed out to me, a counselor, they’re like, but family means something different to everybody. So some people see their family twice a week.

29:02
Some people see him once every few months, you know, so make it very clear what family means. That would definitely be Katrina Hale who mentioned that because- Yeah, it was. I just didn’t know if I could say that. Yes, well the timing of that, because she came on a webinar a little while ago and she did a topic called team culture, which I’ve just published. I think it’s episode 63. And she talks about that family analogy because some people see their family once a year at Christmas. And so we’re going to be like family, I’ll see you once a year. And so yeah, we almost, we really need to define that. So that’s a really good episode if people want to look that one up

29:32
uh check that out yeah so defining that we had it too and I actually I do remember asking the boys so how often do you see your friends and they said oh about once every three to four weeks and so I went oh okay that’s what we’re gonna be hasn’t happened and so it’s sort of like I did even ask but it’s a tricky thing to script out there um so it sounds like there were some bumps along the way that weren’t quite what you thought and um I guess the question this is a bit of a loaded question though that are you glad you did it yes yeah no I wouldn’t change anything because Abby’s a little

30:02
and she’s worth anything. So that’s a fantastic answer. I’m sure there are a few little things that you would change, but when you look back at the journey, if you change anything, it might change the baby. Like it could have been, yeah. Yeah. And does it bring you joy watching your friends be parents and Abby growing up? Do you feel that particular strong bond to Abby?

30:22
particular in or is it your friend’s child now or is it hard to explain? Um, probably because we’ve got really close friends that had a baby just seven weeks before Abby was born. I’m close with their baby, admittedly it is strong with Abby. It’s not. Probably like I view my nieces and nephews, I’d say. Yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah, bit extra special. Wonderful. Well I think we’ve covered what we need to unless there’s anything else that’s jumped into your brain to add in. Nope.

30:46
You were quiet on the chat tonight, but maybe you were primarily here to listen to Laura’s story, which is a wonderful story. And I think I’m really pleased that I’ve had Laura on tonight, because you get to hear about a whole journey that had bumps, both in terms of the logistics, like the counseling and the lawyers, but then also as a team. I think although Laura hasn’t probably, you know, drilled in deep, but as she, you know, perhaps could have, I think you’re getting an idea of some of the bumps along the way and to then take into conversations for your own team. If you have a team at the moment or have a team in the future,

31:16
a great episode that you come back to as a team and listen to and talk about how could we do that for our team. And Lauren says in the chats over there, thank you Laura for sharing your story with us all. Thank you for joining me. If you’d like to see the photos shared in this webinar presentation, head over to our YouTube channel to watch the webinar. You can head to surrogacyaustralia.org for more information about surrogacy. Also check out our Zoom monthly catch up sessions, which are a great way to connect with others in the surrogacy community.

31:45
Attending a zoom is scary the first time but there’s only ever one first time. We have all been beginners at some stage. As we say it takes a village to raise a child and in the case of surrogacy it takes a village to make a child so welcome to the village.